Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

I would like to know of any non violent hunters who train their hounds using positive methods. As in trying to find alternative ways other than beating your hound into doing something. I have read multiple things online of all the proper ways to train your hounds using your hands, riding crops, dead animals, etc. I also know a few coonhunters that simply shoot their dogs in the woods if they piss them off. I for one don't understand this mentality. At least try to get some of your money back that you have spent on the hound.

I am interested in seeing how many people out there use a little bit of patience to train their hounds. I am simply sick of reading about the abuse. I have at my house a 3 year old blue tick who is a product of an abusived coonhunter. In my opinion he is an ok hunting dog nothing spectacular. I don't think he hunts because he wants the coon he does it more for the attention he gets when he does tree. He is actually able to be loose in the house with the cats and the little dogs. (Yes it is possible to have a hound as a family member) I would never trust him alone with the other dogs or the cats but he knows the rules while I am there. I just find the hound world a pretty sad place for the dogs and I would like someone to enlighten me as to the better side of it.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Bronaugh, MO
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I have a dog that you cannot touch or yell at her. I just simply talk to her and tell her no. Sometimes if she's on offgame I'll let her stay there for awhile and see if she will correct herself. We then lead her out of what she's doing and will take her another place to try and tree a coon.Wy comes in and out of the house. She's a sweetheart and yelling and stuff scares her. So we can't do the whole yelling with her but then I know some dogs that are just to hard headed to listen so you have to go to the harsh way. It's like Wy can sense when you're disapointed.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

Just having a bad nite last nite....... I know there are some decent coonhunters out there who don't use abuse to train with. I do understand that sometimes you need to be a little bit harsher with some. I have done quite a few different dog sports and I know that there is abuse in each every different sport.

I am looking to get a puppy to start training and I am looking for some positive ways to train a hound especially a young one. I'd really like to use positive training with this puppy just to show people that hounds are capable of doing things without having to use extreme measures. Most people I know of think hounds are stupid and that you have to be rough with them to make them learn anything.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 543

I am going to have some AKC Boxer pups soon. That might be more of what you are looking for than coonhound and coonhunting. A coondog a one purpose at my house and that is coonhunting, not lap dogs. And my dogs go hunting not to please me but because they have every intent in taking a coons life if he doesn't climb. I mean I don't have to beat my dogs every night but if they need a little touching up I will be more than happy to give them what they need to get their head on right.

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Hartford City,IN
Posts: 196

There is a difference between abuse and correction. We quit paddling our kids in school and will almost get throwed in jail if someone sees you do it in your yard And you can see where that has gotten us.........

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Canton, NC
Posts: 721

My coonhounds are my companions. Porthos & Adonis are house dogs. Rocket sleeps in a crate in my bedroom at night.
They go everywhere with me. They all have obedience training.
They are all coon crazy. Adonis was 4 before I could get anyone to help me hunt him. & He made NTCH no problem.
He trees coon in the hopes he'll get one shot out to him, but also because I am his pack leader & it pleases me when he does so.
I won't let anyone who helps me hunt my dogs hit them or beat them. I will use a shock collar to break them off deer, as it's dangerous for them to run deer. I will alpha roll them to teach them not to fuss at the tree.
I use clicker training to teach them to bench show.
I too get sick of how so many train their dogs. But I just find the ones that don't & make friends with them.
I just try to use my dogs as an example to others, but I don't preach. If anyone wants to learn postiive training methods, I willingly help them.
If they want to make fun of me for loving my dogs, I just tell them let's go hunting or walk away.
In the end, I have dogs that do their job & more. Any one of them would give their life to protect me & they all keep me smiling & laughing and add more joy to my life than anything else ever has.

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I SENT YOU A PM

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Location: Bunn, NC (Near Raleigh)
Posts: 1584

Not sure where the references to dead animals and riding crops comes from but heres my attempt at a response....

Most every coonhunter I know uses positive and negative consequences in their training.
Positive consequences are praise, petting, and rewards. A prime example is a young dog treeing and staying treed, in the early stages when the pup is doing this he or she will get encouragement and petted up real good for this behavior, and even after the dog gets older the dog is often encouraged and praised at every tree and sometimes rewarded with the coon being shot out to them which some dogs absolutely love.

Negative consequences are an equally valuable tool in dog training; examples of negative consequences are harsh words/scolding, spanking/whipping, and e-collar usage. Each of these can be valuable tools if used properly and with each dog a different method or degree of severity may be needed. I will use any of the above methods to break my dogs off of deer and have found that the e-collar works best for this; if I do not stop deer running I risk losing the dog to a road as a deer runs straight away and will cross roads which can be the death of a hound...therefore I'd rather be harsh today and stop the undesirable behavior than scrape him off the road tomorrow because I did not want to be "mean".

I'd also like to address the shooting of a dog because someone was pissed off...this is not dicipline in any form and really punishment of a dog should never come from raw emotion as described in that statement. Yet I do support the right and need of a trainer to cull a dog that will not make the grade as a coonhound. I myself try to place the dog in a pet home but that is an option that is almost impossible and when taken to a shelter most end up being put down anyway, Here in the south often a "reject" can be spayed/nuetered and given to a deer hunter for their use as it takes less brains to pack and run a deer than it does to excel at treeing racoons. As for your comment regarding selling the dog and getting some money back - trying to sell a worthless dog that is as unethical as being abusive is....

Lastly I'd like to discuss your 3 year old -it has to do one thing, that is to please you and make you happy, if it does that then it is a great dog! I wish you the best of luck in coonhunting and encourage you to make friends with those that have similar values and this will make your hunting much more enjoyable.

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I agree that you don't have to absolutley beat a dog to get it to do what you want it to, but lets all be realistic!! When I was a child and did something wrong my Dad would wear me out... chances are I didn't do that again! I turned out just fine! I plan on spanking my children and a little spank on the rump doesn't hurt a dog either!

I do have to say that I have seen some hunters get after their dogs a little too much and that isn't called for, but when we start treating our hunting dogs like little queen bees that have it better than our children we might aswell hang up our lights and boots!!

My dogs come in the house alot of times and even ride up front in the truck with me sometimes, but they know their place in the pecking order and I have to problem correcting them if they get out of line. I think you have a better relationship with your dog if you spend time with it instead of leaving it in the kennel and out to only hunt.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

BEAUTIFUL response. I agree with everything you said, especially what you said about culling. If you have done your part in training a tree dog, and that dog does not have what it takes, and never will have what it takes, then the dog should absolutely be put down. This is not only in the best interests of the dog, it's in the best interests of the breed. No dog deserves to be passed from owner to owner, being subjected to all kinds of abuse in the process. It's a terrible way for a dog to have to live. Also, putting the dog down removes a weak link from the breed. If everyone would do this (in a humane way, of course), then the breeds would, no doubt, improve.

The people who resell dogs that they claim to be coondogs are responsible for many people quitting the sport. You're costing other people money by trying to get some of yours back, and you're selling them your problem. You need to just realize that you wasted your money, and have the dog put down (if all other options fail... finding it a home as a pet, etc.)

It's a jagged pill for some people to swallow, but it's part of the sport. If you can't do your part for the benefit of the sport and the dogs, then maybe you should consider not participating.

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Quitman, Ms.
Posts: 649

The funny thing about this world is there are people that will differ in opinions on every facet of life.

You will find people that believe it is unethical to breed dogs with no hair. You will find people that believe it is unethical to train dogs to jump through hoops. You will find people that believe it is unethical to train a dog to stand perfectly still on a bench.

Now, with that said: I certianly find the abuse of animals repulsive, but what you classify as abuse I may classify as needed punishment.

I am sure there are people in the dog shows that I would classify as abusive. Just as I would find ethical people at the dog shows too. I know a top breeder of English Bulldogs. Bulldogs seem to have a lot of genetic deffects for some reason (I believe unethical breeding of dogs), but to my point: if the defect is to bad guess what happens to the pup.

Some coonhunters are unethical, and many are great houndsmen or houndswomen (politically correct) that truely love the sport and their hounds. Lump classification can be done in any hobby if you get my drift: I hope you never put the little hairless dog in the snow, now that would be abuse.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
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By the way, here's a picture of my bluetick. And guess what? She's on my bed, where she sleeps at night!

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

everyone for your responses. Thank you for showing me that there are some decent hound people out there

Let me see if I can answer everyone. I live in Ohio and we have snow here so yes I do put the hairless cresteds in the snow to go to the bathroom. They all wear 4 legged jammies when it's cold. Believe it or not some of the hairless do love to play in the snow. I have a picture of one of them doing it but am not sure how to put pictures on here. We also have puffs (the coated variety of cresteds) They love the snow so they stay out in the cold longer to help their hair grow.

I love the picture of the bluetick on the bed

Yep there are a lot of unethical people in the show world. I do not agree with a lot of things they do. They do some very very wrong things to their dogs :/

As for the dead animals and the riding crops. Some of the hunters around here beat their dogs with dead animals. Such as if your hound runs a possum they kill the possum and then beat the dog with it. I guess they think that will cure it?
I was on a website and they were talking about beating a dog with a riding crop for things like barking or jumping up on the person.

In my opinion if you have to put dogs down simply to remove a weak link in the breed then you have a problem in your breeding program. We carefully evaluate all of the cresteds here and if we don't think they can make a better crested than what we have in our kennel we don't breed that dog. If we do get undesirable puppies in a litter that dog is neutered/spayed and placed in another home.

I like this comment( I think you have a better relationship with your dog if you spend time with it instead of leaving it in the kennel and out to only hunt.) Yes I totally agree with it. Would like to see more of the hunters do that around here. Most of the ones around here simply tie their hounds up after season is over and let them sit until season starts.

I understand the use of correction and yes I know how to use it. When I was growing up we had corgis and nobody knew about positive methods of training.

When I was talking about selling a dog to get money back. I was talking about a person I know of that has shot some very good dogs. Lets take the dog that I have in my kennel right now. He is an ok hunting dog. He won't kick dirt in your face but he will tree a coon and as long as you keep telling him he is a good boy he will stay on the tree. He doesn't go deep in the woods. Does that make him a bad dog? Does that make him a bad hunting dog? Lets say my friend has had a bad day at work and takes this dog out hunting. This dog is so sensitive that he can't have a shock collar used on him. So lets say he knows that my friend is having a bad day which causes the dog to have a bad nite. My friend gets pissed off at this dog and loses his temper and shoots the dog. Is this right? There are people who love to hunt this dog because he is not a hard core hunting dog. Would it not make more sense to sell him to someone who wants him and get some or your money back rather than to just shoot the dog and throw money down the drain?

I did have 2 black and tan puppies here which unfortunately the vet did not diagnose for coccidia and we lost them. It was incredibly devastating. They were such beautiful dogs and so smart! I look forward to getting another one. I am looking to train hunting dogs and also tracking dogs so am trying to gather as much information on hounds as I can.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

I have been reading this post and re-reading it and am having a hard time putting my thoughts on this into words..

I do believe in correcting my hounds, maybe with e-collar, my voice or my hand.. I also believe in spanking children... And I figure I will have a couple kids of my own when they allow me to use and e-collar on them...... JK!!!!!

I pride myself in the care I take of my dogs and in the manners they have... They are just hounds, but they are pretty darn well behaved.... I have seen some awful methods of training done by people and have actually refused to sell them puppies more then once.... But dogs need to be correct, as sometimes what they are doing is putting them into a dangerous situation.. As for culling a dog.. Is it better to cull a dog after you are sure it isn't going to make a hunting dog or let it go to someone who can't control a hound as a pet and after a poor existense it ends up in a shelter to be put down anyways or turned loose to try and make it on it's own???? And I believe in giving a dog every chance in the world to prove itself... some have it and some don't, those are the facts...... Hounds are not easy pets... I know LOTS of people who are much better keeping their little froo froo house dogs then trying to tackle a hound as a pet...

It really irks me in some people's perspective on how houndsmen/women treat their dogs... Not insinuating anyone here... just in general....

Here is a couple of my top cat dogs after a hard days work.

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

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I have never been around a top coonhound trainer that did not physicaly discipline a dog when it needed it.
One of them once told me that in order to be a top hound,it needs to love you with aLL its heart and be deathly afraid of you at the same time. He said it was up to him as the trainer to instill both of these emotions in the dog at a young age.
Come to think of it,my Father trained me the same way. Believe me when i say i knew at a young age what made him happy and what it was he wanted me to do,and what would happen if i strayed too far from those things.Im no longer afraid of him now that he is 87 years old,but i still love him with all my heart and respect him more than ever.

Last edited by elvis on 06-06-2007 at 12:12 AM

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Location: Northeastern Ohio
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I don't know if you can call cresteds a froo froo dog. They are in the toy group but I wouldn't think of them as froo froo dogs

Nice picture

I know hounds are not easy pets. I am hoping that I can remain patient enough to train one from a puppy to an adult. I am hoping I remain patient enough to work with the three year old I have in my kennel. I have had all kinds of dogs. I have had corgis. A pack of corgis can be a deadly force. I have had rottweilers. They are not bad dogs you just have to know how to handle them. I also had a lab/pointer mix. I don't know that he ever did get tired. I started training him in tracking and he now works on the Georgia police department as a drug detection dog. I now have the cresteds who if you aren't careful how you train them they are ready to pack up their bags and leave home.

I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone - especially those who treat their hounds decently. I just wanted to know that there was a good side to coonhunting as I've only really seen the bad side so far. Thank you to everyone who has shown me that there are decent people out there and has once again reinforced my faith in people.

I am not against putting a dog to sleep for the right reason. I have done it many times. I made the decision to put my last rottie to sleep because she was starting to get aggressive and out of control. In that case there was no other option. I couldn't let her go to another home because if anything would of happened it would of been my fault. I could of kept her but there is always the chance that something could of happened and someone could of gotten seriously hurt.

I don't want you to think I just rushed into owning a hound. I spent time with a friends hounds and found that I really liked them. I thought long and hard about whether I would be able to handle a hound. I also did quite a bit of reading and talking to people about hounds. I also joined email lists about coonhounds. On one of those lists I learned about a coonhound named Jeb. Here is his website.

http://www.precisionk-9.com/


He tracks people and he went to the akc obedience invitational this year.

I waited almost a year to find my 2 black and tan puppies. They came from fairly decent hunting stock. If I found that I couldn't hack having a hound I had a hunting home for them to go to. It was horrible to lose them especially when I saw so much potential in them. I am looking forward to getting another black and tan. There are a lot of people around here that think hounds are stupid, ignorant, slobbering beasts. I would like to show them that they aren't.

Using an e-collar on children......... Now why didn't I think of that My son is turning 16. I don't guess I need to say anymore than that.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

quote:

---

Originally posted by elvis
I have never been around a top coonhound trainer that did not physicaly discipline a dog when it needed it.
One of them once told me that in order to be a top hound,it needs to love you with aLL its heart and be deathly afraid of you at the same time. He said it was up to him as the trainer to instill both of these emotions in the dog at a young age.
Come to think of it,my Father trained me the same way. Believe me when i say i knew at a young age what made him happy and what it was he wanted me to do,and what would happen if i strayed too far from those things.Im no longer afraid of him now that he is 87 years old,but i still love him with all my heart and respect him more than ever.

---

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
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quote:

---

Originally posted by fyresidecrested
I don't know if you can call cresteds a froo froo dog. They are in the toy group but I wouldn't think of them as froo froo dogs

Nice picture

Using an e-collar on children......... Now why didn't I think of that My son is turning 16. I don't guess I need to say anymore than that.

---

I don't think I would consider your crested froo froo dogs either LOL Not enough hair.

I really hope that didn't come out as picking on you. Like I said I was having problems putting my thoughts into words.

I am sorry about your Black and tans.. It sucks losing a dog no matter what age

We have been accused of being pretty lax on our dogs.. I don't believe in trash breaking until we have a problem and like larrypoe mentioned, we try to outwit more then anything.

And somehow with minimal abuse My dogs get the hint when I tell them "I'm gonna knock you out" or use the "F" word.. They know when I am mad and decide that my way is much better.

I have a male that you wouldn't want to get into a knock down drag out fight with. If he thinks he doesn't deserve an a$$ whooping then you are not going to give it to him. He is not mean at all. He just takes his lumps when he deserves them and nobody and I mean nobody is going to take their frustrations out on him.... If he is in the wrong he will take it and go pout in his doghouse...

All dogs are different.. I have a Bloodhound who is going to be introduced to mousetraps in the garbage because no matter how much or how hard you get after her... She doesn't care.. None of my other hounds are that stubborn....

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

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The reason people shoot no good dogs is why pass on your **** to someone eles and your job as a houndsman is to better your bred so if you allow those dogs to be passed on to some idoit to breed then you anit bettering your breed and you are not a houndsman!(but there are other ways besides beating a dog your right)

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Shelby Co. IN
Posts: 444

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Herring
Not sure where the references to dead animals and riding crops comes from but heres my attempt at a response....

Most every coonhunter I know uses positive and negative consequences in their training.
Positive consequences are praise, petting, and rewards. A prime example is a young dog treeing and staying treed, in the early stages when the pup is doing this he or she will get encouragement and petted up real good for this behavior, and even after the dog gets older the dog is often encouraged and praised at every tree and sometimes rewarded with the coon being shot out to them which some dogs absolutely love.

Negative consequences are an equally valuable tool in dog training; examples of negative consequences are harsh words/scolding, spanking/whipping, and e-collar usage. Each of these can be valuable tools if used properly and with each dog a different method or degree of severity may be needed. I will use any of the above methods to break my dogs off of deer and have found that the e-collar works best for this; if I do not stop deer running I risk losing the dog to a road as a deer runs straight away and will cross roads which can be the death of a hound...therefore I'd rather be harsh today and stop the undesirable behavior than scrape him off the road tomorrow because I did not want to be "mean".

I'd also like to address the shooting of a dog because someone was pissed off...this is not dicipline in any form and really punishment of a dog should never come from raw emotion as described in that statement. Yet I do support the right and need of a trainer to cull a dog that will not make the grade as a coonhound. I myself try to place the dog in a pet home but that is an option that is almost impossible and when taken to a shelter most end up being put down anyway, Here in the south often a "reject" can be spayed/nuetered and given to a deer hunter for their use as it takes less brains to pack and run a deer than it does to excel at treeing racoons. As for your comment regarding selling the dog and getting some money back - trying to sell a worthless dog that is as unethical as being abusive is....

Lastly I'd like to discuss your 3 year old -it has to do one thing, that is to please you and make you happy, if it does that then it is a great dog! I wish you the best of luck in coonhunting and encourage you to make friends with those that have similar values and this will make your hunting much more enjoyable.

---

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first off im not for beating down dogs, and im not for killing dogs or any animal for no reason at all. i coonhunt, deer hunt and fish. i also and break & train horses- if you dont know each horse or dog is different and learns a different way than others youre not going to get very far training either. hounds are very smart dogs for the most part and can be taught all kinds of obedience but like any dog you have to consistantly spend that time with them to teach them that. second- i dont believe dogs/pets are little furry people in animal suits, i will never put an animal above a person. a dog is what it is- a dog, theyll eat their own sh*t and f*** their own mother.

i dont see how you can train a dog to tree a coon or coonhunt at all for that matter if you cant shoot out coon to them. you have to cull dogs to keep people from breeding worthless dogs- coonhounds are hunting dogs and only the best stock should be bred, to better the breed. if you can spay or neuter hounds that dont turn out and find them nice pet homes im all for it but most hunters dont want to pass their problem on to another. hunting, espically with hounds, isnt for everyone, but just because you dont agree with someone dosnt mean theyre wrong.

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Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

i dont see how you can train a dog to tree a coon or coonhunt at all for that matter if you cant shoot out coon to them.


I was reading an article today at lunch that was written by John Wick. I forget which magazine it was written in but he said that if you don't have to shoot a coon to get your hounds motivated to tree. He says petting or praising works just as well. Guess I will find out if that is true or not.....

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
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"Fyresides Shotgun Willie"
www.fyresidecresteds.com

I asked God to make me a more patient person - he gave me a coonhound.

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Location: North of Panama City Florida
Posts: 1014

i never said to get it motivated to tree- most people over do it working and praising a dog on the tree, to the point where it can make a dog down right mean. i said train a dog to hunt coon (what i ment by tree a coon) by never using coon or shooting coon out to them as a reward. i personally dont shoot but acouple coon out a year to my dogs and i try as best i can that the coon dosnt go to waste as i dont eat it myself, the reason i shoot the coon out is to reward my dogs- i sell it just so its not left to rot. (dont take this the wrong way) but if you cant stand killing an animal or using a dead one to train a pup with, why are you in coonhuntin to begin with? why not a dalmation or german shepard for obedience? or basset hound if you want a hound breed?

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-Amanda

- In Loving Memory of -
DEEP SPRINGS BLACK MAX
&
LEVIS SOUTHERN BLUE DOC

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

I once talked to a girl who said that her grandfather had black and tans and that he never shot a coon for his dogs and they still hunted. I don't know if this is true but I would like to find out if it's possible. Everyone has their own style of hunting. I myself don't personally hunt at this time. I go along with people and observe. I would like to be more into the training part of dogs. Hence that is why I'm here to gather information to hopefully train and turn out decent dogs. I don't plan on doing this all by myself as my boss is a hardcore coonhunter. He hunts his dogs, shoots coon out to them, and then sells their hides.

What would I want a dalmation, basset hound, german shephard, or a boxer for? Not really my kind of dog. If I want something for obedience I have the cresteds or a coonhound. Like I said in an earlier post there is a bluetick that went to the akc obedience invitationals and he also tracks people.

I have a hound breed. Cresteds are in the toy group but they are actually considered to be a sight hound.

Not every hound makes a good hunting dog as I'm sure everyone knows. The hound that is my kennel right now could care less about getting a coon. I would bet that you could take him out and never shoot a coon out to him and he would still hunt. He loves the praise he gets for treeing but he wants nothing to do with a coon. He acts like he's afraid of them.

I never said I wouldn't use a dead coon to get them motivated to understand that that is what they are supposed to hunt. I once had a blue tick/beagle cross that I started training by using the tail off a racoon that had just been run over on the road.

I would like to someday do the competition hunting with a dog that I have trained or at least see somebody else run it.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
&
Bloodtracking Black & Tan Coonhound
"Fyresides Shotgun Willie"
www.fyresidecresteds.com

I asked God to make me a more patient person - he gave me a coonhound.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

quote:

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Originally posted by fyresidecrested
In my opinion if you have to put dogs down simply to remove a weak link in the breed then you have a problem in your breeding program. We carefully evaluate all of the cresteds here and if we don't think they can make a better crested than what we have in our kennel we don't breed that dog. If we do get undesirable puppies in a litter that dog is neutered/spayed and placed in another home.

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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