UKC Forums - Coon Dogs & Race Horses, It's all in the Genetics !!!!

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Posted by Trinket clark on 02-16-2014 01:00 PM:

Coon Dogs & Race Horses, It's all in the Genetics !!!!

I've been reading about genetics and breeding of Race Horses, A lot of good info on there... There's a lot more money in horse racing than coon dogs, so the money spent is phenomenal, on testing of genetics, and crosses, X and Y chromosomes, the X-Factor that can be traced back over a 100 yrs is still popping up in race horses today...Secretariats Large Heart, etc.etc. A lot of good reading..

Just thought I would start another thread on breeding, pedigree positioning, genetics, Etc..

What are some of the trade secrets of the Race Horse industry on Breeding...

Do coon Dogs Have an X-factor that we don't know about..The Large Heart, that unbaleavable nose , unequaled track speed with a coon on the end..etc etc...something that can be traced back to one dog 50 yrs ago...

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Posted by Chiggers on 02-16-2014 01:15 PM:

All that money spent and Big Red ran that time in what, 1972, and not one horse has ran it faster since.

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Posted by Trinket clark on 02-16-2014 01:29 PM:

Secretariat

Secretariat was with out a doubt the greatest race horse ever to run around a track...But was not a very good reproducer, but his daughters have produced very well.. If you want some good reading , read about Secretariat ,just type in secretariat on your computer ,or I-Pad, and start reading...

Why was he such a great Race Horse?
Did they make that cross again, and if so what was the outcome?
Was he a good Reproducer?
How was he Bred?
Where did the large heart come from?.
Did any other Race horses ever have a large Heart?

It is very interesting Reading...

Posted by Trinket clark on 02-16-2014 01:44 PM:

Chiggers,

I used to live in Lawrenceburgh Kentucky...my parents still do..along with a brother and a sister.. Only been to the Kentucky Derby once, it was really cool.
Was a blacksmith and shoed horses for a living for about 10 yrs, till my back gave out..always loved horses thought this topic would bring up some good conversations... Good Hunting Bud.

Posted by Rocketman55 on 02-16-2014 03:48 PM:

Interesting topic. Trinket Clark mentioned that Secretariet was not a good reproducer but his daughters were.

I think we see that same result from time to time in our coonhounds. I made a cross about 8 years ago, that on paper looked to be outstanding. I was breeding my female whose linage was superior strike, track, locate, and treeing ability to a male that had same/similar dogs in his pedigree. That being said, I didn't get what I was expecting. We now have bred a male offspring from that cross to a female offspring (1st cousin to the male) and we now have a young dog that is operating much like what I expected from the original cross.

I'm not sure if the results we are now seeing, are due to the skipped generation theory, or if it is because of the fact that we doubled up on the blood on the bottom side of this last cross.

But this is an interesting topic (at least for me)

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Posted by elvis on 02-16-2014 04:21 PM:

interesting topic.
im no authority by any means, but it would seem to me that many more stars would need to line up to get a super coondog than it would to get a fast horse.

Posted by Cecil's BNT on 02-16-2014 04:36 PM:

Breed traits

This is a very interesting I think. I have been around an bred horses my whole life. We have show horses we look for natural ability to gait an the lift of their front feet. We had a very nice mare we breed to 4 or 5 different studs her foals all had the exact same traits. A great natural gait with a big lifting front end. No matter what we bred her to the foals where all the same the only thing that was different on every foal was color. So my question kinda is how much comes from the father or mother. In this case it was like all the ability came from the female an the only thing from the male was color.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-16-2014 04:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
interesting topic.
im no authority by any means, but it would seem to me that many more stars would need to line up to get a super coondog than it would to get a fast horse.

I tend to agree with you Marv, but just like coondogs, a race horse will never amount to anything standing in the pasture.

I'm no expert in either, but do know that there is as much training involved in racing horses as there is in training a hound. The difference is that they simply are not competed as often as our hounds....and there is more "choice" involved in racing a horse. The trainer chooses the distance of the race they want to put the young horse in, will withdraw the horse if the track isn't "good" for the horse, too wet, too dry...or they draw the wrong post position.

All horses are born with the flight instinct. Not all dogs are born with the instinct or desire to "tree". I know that the basic principles of genetics apply to all living creatures, I'm not sure that we can truly breed for the "freaks" of the world that surpass what nature had in store for them, and what we all seek in them.

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Posted by Cowboyred on 02-16-2014 05:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
interesting topic.
im no authority by any means, but it would seem to me that many more stars would need to line up to get a super coondog than it would to get a fast horse.

Also not an authority, and agree with elvis. Breeding a fast horse, a market hog or steer requires the manipulation/control of only a few traits. The number of traits we are attempting to influence in locating tree dogs or, similarly, pointing bird dogs is much greater. Additionally, there are numerous influences related to personal preference on type of performance, type of game, type of hunting terrain etc.. That doesn't mean there isn't valuable information to be learned from what has/is being done with race horses, it's just a different level of complexity.

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 02-16-2014 05:06 PM:

i am not much on reading but i did watch the movie.big red
was not even the 1st choice by a major breeder was he?

Posted by hillbilly56 on 02-16-2014 05:22 PM:

bloodlines

i think it has sme to do with the blood line but you can breed the best to the best and get duds when i look at a dog or horse i look at what kind of heart they got and how they go don't pay much atteion to blood lines on a dog if i like him or her now on horses i do pay atteion some what to bloodlines the ward bred horses and sonny jr blood usally makes good pulling horses so i sorta try to get something outa that line if i buy a horse

Posted by Dirtdevil on 02-16-2014 06:16 PM:

discipline ...

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 02-16-2014 06:53 PM:

They done a study on coon dog genetics and mapped out the chromosomes. They are letters. Its very intersting. Coondog genetics is complicated yet still very very simple. Each letter represents a trait and they actually found a whole strand together. THey put the letters together. It says.

L I P P E R

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 02-16-2014 06:53 PM:

YOU KNOW YOU LAUGHED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 02-16-2014 06:55 PM:

All jokes aside, Lipper blood is awesome.

Posted by BigD62 on 02-17-2014 01:06 AM:

breeding

There is a similar breeding fact that happened with birddogs. CH. Red Water Rex was a dominant winner on the all age circuit winning multiple championships was bred a lot and was used by elhew kennels never produced much himself but his daughters produced several champions when crossed with several different studs. No one could explain it but his daughters were considered strong reproducers. Dan

Posted by Dirtdevil on 02-17-2014 01:15 AM:

Just goes to show the influence of the dam is much stronger than the sire ... the first gyps or mares bred to a big name sire are throwing THEIR offspring .. but his daughters will throw more of their sire in turn ....

Posted by J.Woodfin on 02-17-2014 02:57 AM:

big red

My hunting buddy hunts the Meadow where secretariat was born. The farm was perfect for producing and training thoroughbreds. It must not work for coon dogs though cause they still suck.lol

Posted by Chiggers on 02-17-2014 11:54 PM:

Re: Secretariat

quote:
Originally posted by Trinket clark
Secretariat was with out a doubt the greatest race horse ever to run around a track...But was not a very good reproducer, but his daughters have produced very well.. If you want some good reading , read about Secretariat ,just type in secretariat on your computer ,or I-Pad, and start reading...

Why was he such a great Race Horse?
Did they make that cross again, and if so what was the outcome?
Was he a good Reproducer?
How was he Bred?
Where did the large heart come from?.
Did any other Race horses ever have a large Heart?

It is very interesting Reading...

I would just like to hear Cawoods call of the That Derby again. AND THE BIG RED STALLION HAS TOOK OVER !!!

__________________
Perry Metcalf.. Go Big Blue !

Posted by jha on 02-18-2014 12:43 AM:

Re: breeding

quote:
Originally posted by BigD62
There is a similar breeding fact that happened with birddogs. CH. Red Water Rex was a dominant winner on the all age circuit winning multiple championships was bred a lot and was used by elhew kennels never produced much himself but his daughters produced several champions when crossed with several different studs. No one could explain it but his daughters were considered strong reproducers. Dan

those elhew dogs are legendary within the bird dog world. a lot could be learned from that breeding program. I suspect those guys of old (including the coondog world) had an advantage over us now. o.o. grant was said to have kept upwards of 100+ brood bitches at one time. take all those pups and cull hard and progress from there. that system lends itself to getting better dogs. if I had that many dogs and raised that many pups the powers that be would put me under the jail.

Posted by AndyMiller on 02-18-2014 02:33 AM:

;;;;;;;;;;;

seabuiscut.....adios---DELVIN MILLER AND A HORSE NAMED== ADIOS ===IS ALL WHAT STARTED THE MEADOWS IN WASHINGTON PA.==ADIOS WAS IN ALMOST EVERY STANDARBRED HORSES PEDIGREES ==JUST LIKE HOUSES LIPPER== BUT ITS ALMOST BRED OUT==YES THRS A LOT MORE MONEY IN HORSES== BUT ITS TEN TIMES MORE WORK TO GET A HORSE READY FOR A RACE THAN A COON DOG READY FOR A HUNT ===THEY HAVE 1 RACE PER YEAR CALLED THE ADIOS ==THE PURSE LAST FALL WAS -- 450.OOO,= THE WINNER GOT HAVE THE PURSE REST WAS SPLIT UNDER 6 OTHER HORSES==AND IT LASTED 1 MIN. 46 SEC. BUT I LIKE MY DOGS

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Posted by Jim Bartley on 02-18-2014 05:39 AM:

Ain't nothing said here about breeding dogs, or horses, that Guy Ormiston hasn't covered in the last 20 or more years writing in UKC Coonhound Bloodlines...

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-18-2014 06:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtdevil
Just goes to show the influence of the dam is much stronger than the sire ... the first gyps or mares bred to a big name sire are throwing THEIR offspring .. but his daughters will throw more of their sire in turn ....

As for the actual genetic material and not the expression of the genome the above statement is false.

The male provides 50% of the genetic material, and the female 50%. Yes, the female also provides the genetic material for mitochondrial DNA, but that is a very small part of the total DNA. Something on the order of 0.0001%.

Now with that being said, again remember I am not talking about genetic expression of DNA. That is determined strictly how all the genes pair up.

Any thing that increases our understanding in genetics is a worthwhile pursuit. There are some other details to consider when making a direct comparison of coon dogs and race horses. Two examples are a horse has a rider and speed is a factor of physical attributes. A coon dog also relies on physical traits, but not to the same degree as race horses. Finally, many of the better coon hounds display a higher degree of intellect. Breeding for intellect or behavioral traits is much more difficult than breeding for physical traits.

Push comes to shove, we would all be much better off if we would just increase our levels of breeding stock selection.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-19-2014 01:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton

Push comes to shove, we would all be much better off if we would just increase our levels of breeding stock selection.

And so ends another good topic on this message board. If we would all just read Larry's statement here, take it to heart, and make sure that in no way shape or form are we breeding individuals and trying to "improve" them.....our level of success would increase.....

I've said it 100 times. If you don't want another one JUST LIKE what you have...don't breed it. And don't breed what you have to what you want, if what you want isn't what you have.

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Posted by Dirtdevil on 02-19-2014 01:18 AM:

yeah , mom and dad both contribute the same number of chromosomes and such .. and the dominate dna is supposed to be the one expressed most ... but by and large , in reality .. it's momma's babies .. daddy's maybe.

We see it in so many studs ...dogs or horses , the sire's daughters produce better and more of his traits than he did .... and in that case , he wasn't even there when the conception happened ! So contribution of chromosomes sure aint the main factor of the grandparents wouldn't even be in the picture

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