UKC Forums - How should this be scored

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Posted by T-Monroe on 05-19-2013 08:38 PM:

How should this be scored

4 dog cast, dogs a,b,c are treed and dog d was not treed or declared treed. All trees are closed and dogs are handled. Then dog d comes in after all dogs were handled and trees closed. Tree was scored no coon seen.

Should dog d take any munus with no coon seen?

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Posted by LIL-E on 05-19-2013 09:03 PM:

Minus only if coon was seen.

Posted by T-Monroe on 05-19-2013 10:08 PM:

That's what I said and the judge says no he gets next available and minused. He lost the cast over this mis-scoring and this isn't the first time I have been done like this at this same club. You would think they would have non-hunting judges that atleast know the rules!

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Posted by CLJohnson on 05-19-2013 10:18 PM:

Question it and take it to MOH

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Posted by T-Monroe on 05-19-2013 10:30 PM:

50 in gas already since gas is over 4.00 a gal here in the midwest, entry fee, plus more gas back to the club house and 20.00 to question it, a poorboy hunt just went from 50 or 60 bucks to well over a 100. No thanks they just need some judges that know the rules.

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Posted by CLJohnson on 05-19-2013 10:32 PM:

It's free to take it to the MoH of I'm not mistaking, the $20 is just if you are I satisfied with the MoHs decision an want to appeal with UKC plus if you win you get it back

Posted by T-Monroe on 05-19-2013 10:34 PM:

They had a hunt director, no master of hounds. But I will read up on it and find out forsure.

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 05-20-2013 12:10 AM:

The rule is printed on the back of the card. Judge just has to be able to read. 5B

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 05-20-2013 12:13 AM:

He gets next available position on tree if its closed and dog D is there when they show up. Was it slicked?

Posted by GA DAWG on 05-20-2013 12:43 AM:

Circle strike points.

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 05-20-2013 01:03 AM:

Then what did the judge think he was minus for? That has to be the most missed rule in ukc hands down.

Posted by Doug Bowers on 05-20-2013 02:26 AM:

Delete strike. i would say.
no use to take to MO they most likely go with judge.
we have lots of problems with the buddy buddy system. heard one say the other night at hunt. no need to bring a question back that was voted on. he would go with judge no matter what.

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Posted by Brierly2011 on 05-20-2013 03:08 AM:

Re: How should this be scored

quote:
Originally posted by T-Monroe
4 dog cast, dogs a,b,c are treed and dog d was not treed or declared treed. All trees are closed and dogs are handled. Then dog d comes in after all dogs were handled and trees closed. Tree was scored no coon seen.

Should dog d take any munus with no coon seen?

was dog D on the same track or leave his track? if tree was closed there shouldnt of been no minus or plus points gave. Only minus should of been is if he left the track to back other dogs tree if thats the case. JMO

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Posted by Brierly2011 on 05-20-2013 03:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jubal
Then what did the judge think he was minus for? That has to be the most missed rule in ukc hands down.

AGREED!!!

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Posted by T-Monroe on 05-20-2013 03:21 AM:

As I said he wasn't sure what he was doing and when I said the hound has to be there when you (the judge) arrives to be minused, he says no he just has to come into the tree. They were all on this hillside working tracks but I never treed my dog because he never treed. He did not come in till tree was closed, with all dogs handled and judge says handle your dog when he did come in and then says he is minused. Not sure what the judge thought he should be minused for because he couldn't tell me.

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 05-20-2013 05:13 AM:

Rule 5 CIRCLE POINTS: (b) No dog to receive minus points for coming into tree after judge arrives unless a coon is seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus points.
In the case you presented the dog should of had his strike points circled. No tree points should have even been recorded.

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Posted by mt blue hawk on 05-20-2013 06:31 AM:

if no coon seen then no minus points should be rewarded and strike points should be deleted

Posted by JiM on 05-20-2013 02:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mt blue hawk
if no coon seen then no minus points should be rewarded and strike points should be deleted

This is the most common mistake made on any cast. Probably because it so seldom makes any difference but the correct answer is CIRCLED strike points, not deleted. The ONLY times strike points are ever deleted is when the clocks stops, strike is shutout or a dog returns to a previously scored tree. All other situations, strike points are either plus, minus or circle, never deleted.

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Posted by grntinokla on 05-21-2013 05:32 AM:

Jim,doesn't rule 5g say to delete strike when dog comes in to a tree that he's shut out on?I had this happen on a cast this weekend and that's the rule I found.Also I thought I had read in the advisor years ago that a good rule of thumb was that strike points should never be circled unless they were connected to tree points except in the case of being in a hole or place of refuge other than a tree.I may be wrong about that part ,but it sure seems like I did.

Posted by runnin rebels on 05-21-2013 12:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by grntinokla
Jim,doesn't rule 5g say to delete strike when dog comes in to a tree that he's shut out on?I had this happen on a cast this weekend and that's the rule I found.Also I thought I had read in the advisor years ago that a good rule of thumb was that strike points should never be circled unless they were connected to tree points except in the case of being in a hole or place of refuge other than a tree.I may be wrong about that part ,but it sure seems like I did.

I never read anywhere in this post that a dog was shut out

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Posted by Paul Frederick on 05-21-2013 01:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by grntinokla
Jim,doesn't rule 5g say to delete strike when dog comes in to a tree that he's shut out on?

You are correct but mistaken as to what "shut out" means. Look to Rule 3(d) to get the definition of that term. Most people interpret "shut out" as a dog who isn't declared treed. In fact the rule plainly states:

"Dog(s) that are shut out (not declared struck before first dog is declared treed) must still be declared struck."

Jim is correct in the appropriate times to delete points, and they are few.

As most of you have pointed out the points should have been circled in accordance with Rule 5(b) "No dog to receive minus points for coming into tree after Judge arrives unless a coon is seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus points."

By deleting the points you are not only misapplying a rule but you could potentially change the outcome of the hunt. Though it doesn't come into play often, the fifth tie-breaker (Rule 16) is "dog that has the most circled strike points." If those points were to be deleted then they couldn't work for or against you in a tie-breaking situation.

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Posted by grntinokla on 05-21-2013 02:25 PM:

OK,thanks.As I said,I thought I had read that years ago and thought that was the reason given at that time,because a dog that didn't finish a track shouldn't be able to use those points to win a cast.Shows why you should ask.Runnin rebels,I took his post to mean he was struck,and then shut out on tree.My bad.lol

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