UKC Forums - Question about rule 6(f).

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-- Question about rule 6(f). (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928261363)

Posted by JiM on 08-01-2012 01:35 AM:

Question about rule 6(f).

Handler strikes his dog and then follows by treeing his dog a good half mile away. About 30 seconds later, his dog falls treed right beside him. Handler informs judge he struck and treed wrong dog. Is he just minused strike and tree for calling the wrong dog or is he scratched for second offense of calling the wrong dog?

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-01-2012 01:40 AM:

Even though he struck AND treed wrong dog i personally would consider it one offense and just minus. UKC. may see it differently though.

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Posted by Randy Howard on 08-01-2012 01:48 AM:

I believe he would be minused strike and tree and would have to strike back in for next available position.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 08-01-2012 01:52 AM:

I would go with one offence if the dogs sounded similar.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 08-01-2012 01:53 AM:

Scratched. He called the wrong dog 2 times.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-01-2012 01:58 AM:

Technically he did call the wrong dog twice 1STRIKE....2TREE so im sure there are guys out there that would send him to the truck and unless theres something in the adviser that i havent seen, that is how the rule is written.
Boils down once again to the difference between a literal interpretation of the rule and the intent.

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Posted by patches9452 on 08-01-2012 02:05 AM:

oki got a question.... if this happens and the guy whos dog it actually was didnt strike his is he minused for thinking it was the other guys dog also

Posted by joey on 08-01-2012 02:24 AM:

He wouldn’t be scratched until the second time the judge minused him for it. In other words he would need to call the dog then be reprimanded by the judge and then commit the offence again.

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Posted by wakenda creek b on 08-01-2012 02:35 AM:

If somebody called my dog for strike Id strike my dog in right behind him off the same bark,same with the tree.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 08-01-2012 02:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Technically he did call the wrong dog twice 1STRIKE....2TREE so im sure there are guys out there that would send him to the truck and unless theres something in the adviser that i havent seen, that is how the rule is written.
Boils down once again to the difference between a literal interpretation of the rule and the intent.

what was the intent if handlers or suppose to know there dog
and there deep enough 2-4 dont know them

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 08-01-2012 02:37 AM:

i would rip the card in half, and say lets go pleasure hunting boys and learn these dogs a little better!!LOL

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-01-2012 03:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
what was the intent if handlers or suppose to know there dog
and there deep enough 2-4 dont know them

In Jims scenario we can see the handler made an honest mistake which he owned up to when he realized he had called the wrong dog.

I think a little common sence tells us the intent of the rule is to prevent a handler from intentionally getting points by calling another handlers dog. and the punishment is that those points are minused on the first offence, and scratch on the second.

Was the tree call his second offence? Only UKC. can decide.

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Posted by longshot on 08-01-2012 03:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
He wouldn’t be scratched until the second time the judge minused him for it. In other words he would need to call the dog then be reprimanded by the judge and then commit the offence again.

That's how I'd judge it too.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 08-01-2012 03:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
In Jims scenario we can see the handler made an honest mistake which he owned up to when he realized he had called the wrong dog.

I think a little common sence tells us the intent of the rule is to prevent a handler from intentionally getting points by calling another handlers dog. and the punishment is that those points are minused on the first offence, and scratch on the second.

Was the tree call his second offence? Only UKC. can decide.

i am alright by it if i start out 225 ahead or a full coon

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Posted by l.lyle on 08-01-2012 04:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
oki got a question.... if this happens and the guy whos dog it actually was didnt strike his is he minused for thinking it was the other guys dog also

I'd like an answer to that also. He didn't strike or tree his dog no matter what he was thinking.

Posted by JiM on 08-01-2012 12:51 PM:

It was obviously two different offenses. The question came up, does the judge have to minus for the wrong strike and then again for the wrong tree before you would have a scratch offense or would it just be a scratch as soon as the judge says "minused strike and tree for calling wrong dog? I don't know.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-01-2012 03:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
It was obviously two different offenses.

If it is "obviously" two different offenses then he is scratched. But is striking and treeing the wrong dog on the same track when no one says anything really 2 different offences or is it one?

I love the question about do you now also scratch the other handler for failing to strike his dog twice also. Obviously he has now barked 8-10 times.

If so, you have now gotten rid of 2 dogs/handlers in the cast that have both treed a coon. Your dog can now back either one and get 225 plus.

Posted by joey on 08-01-2012 04:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If it is "obviously" two different offenses then he is scratched. But is striking and treeing the wrong dog on the same track when no one says anything really 2 different offences or is it one?

I love the question about do you now also scratch the other handler for failing to strike his dog twice also. Obviously he has now barked 8-10 times.

If so, you have now gotten rid of 2 dogs/handlers in the cast that have both treed a coon. Your dog can now back either one and get 225 plus.

We already know that you have to minus the handler for not striking one the third bark before you can scratch him. UKC has interpreted that for us. You cant just say six barks your gone. Thats why I believe he had to be minused for the first offence before you can scratch him for the second one.

Posted by robert whitten on 08-01-2012 04:33 PM:

sounds like the dogs may have sounded so similar that neither handler was sure wich dog was wich .

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-01-2012 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
We already know that you have to minus the handler for not striking one the third bark before you can scratch him. UKC has interpreted that for us. You cant just say six barks your gone.

Then it stands to reason that you can't scratch him for treeing the wrong dog unless you minused him for striking the wrong dog before he treed him.

Posted by joey on 08-01-2012 05:59 PM:

My point exactly.

Posted by l.lyle on 08-01-2012 06:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Then it stands to reason that you can't scratch him for treeing the wrong dog unless you minused him for striking the wrong dog before he treed him.

Which handler are we talking about? the one that did something that was wrong or the handler that did nothing and that was also wrong, or Both handlers.

And are ya'll referring to the first offence as dog A Strike and second offence Tree or are you saying the first offense was handler A and second offence was handler B?

Randy Howard - "I believe he would be minused strike and tree and would have to strike back in for next available position."
This makes the most common sence to me.

Posted by john Duemmer on 08-01-2012 06:43 PM:

strictly by the card the way it is written 2 handlers are scratched.
Handler 1 has two offenses on the card for calling the wrong dog (-STRIKE,-TREE) thats 2.
Handler 2 has two offenses for not calling his dog on or before the third bark.hes gone tooo. because the card says this rule is to be rigidly enforced.

The reality of the situation is that when a dog is heard treeing way in there, that dog will most always bark more than 3 or even 6 times before the handlers can decide if it is theirs or not so someone either by speaking OR not speaking is commiting a scratchable offense.

Sounds more like a game of simon says than a coonhunt.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 08-01-2012 06:52 PM:

Re: Question about rule 6(f).

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Handler strikes his dog and then follows by treeing his dog a good half mile away. ...

Jim , are you saying that he struck the dog , the dog went a half mile , and then he treed the dog?
Or , are you saying he struck and treed a dog that was a half mile in there?

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Posted by l.lyle on 08-01-2012 07:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
strictly by the card the way it is written 2 handlers are scratched.
Handler 1 has two offenses on the card for calling the wrong dog (-STRIKE,-TREE) thats 2.
Handler 2 has two offenses for not calling his dog on or before the third bark.hes gone tooo. because the card says this rule is to be rigidly enforced.

The reality of the situation is that when a dog is heard treeing way in there, that dog will most always bark more than 3 or even 6 times before the handlers can decide if it is theirs or not so someone either by speaking OR not speaking is commiting a scratchable offense.

Sounds more like a game of simon says than a coonhunt.

Are you sure that the fellow that did not call his dog treed would have had to tree his dog at all? Much less by the third bark. I've heard of smart handlers who would not tree their dog if they were playing the clock or whatever reason. Did that dog stay at his tree or did he quit it?

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