UKC Forums - Hey UKC How about a Bench Show Performance program?

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-- Hey UKC How about a Bench Show Performance program? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=217614)

Posted by Robert Welch on 07-08-2008 09:20 AM:

Hey UKC How about a Bench Show Performance program?

Might help pay the entry fee and gas costs to campaign a dog. Would also help the local clubs show entries.

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Posted by went blue on 07-08-2008 01:22 PM:

I think that would be a great idea!

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 07-08-2008 01:25 PM:

Am I the only one that gets an uneasy feeling about Bench Show Judges looking over a full show arena of dogs and then pointing to a dog and awarding him a few hundred dollars? Probably because I can picture the Monday morning phone calls already. We can discuss but I gotta say....makes me squirm a little.

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Posted by Bear on 07-08-2008 03:12 PM:

I got to agree with Todd on this one.I would much rather see some kind of program to reward the dual purpose dog.

Posted by georgef072007 on 07-08-2008 04:18 PM:

Well, I can see Todd's point, but?

However, I can also see the flip side of the argument. The only dogs that I have right now that are in the performance program are lacking the necessary tools to be worthy of being on a bench with me handling them, but if they were good enough it would be nice to have the opportunity to recoup some of the money that I spend hauling them around.

The only possible gain could come in entries, right now we are starting to see more interest in hunting hounds after they are Gr. Nt. Ch. due to the performance point money, and I believe that before long you will actually start seeing as many GRNT's as there are NTCH at the smaller hunts for that reason. Right now there aren't enough out there to justify hauling them to hunts as GRNT's, but the numbers are growing. This could have the same effect for the decreasing entries at the Bench Shows.

The Monday morning calls are going to come anyway, this would only change the subject. As far as the squirming, well, thats why you get the big bucks, right? Well at least I hope they pay you all well for putting up with all of this.

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Posted by on 07-08-2008 04:32 PM:

The Performance Program has not increased GrNt entries at any of the clubs I hunt. Our clubs entries are actually higher this year in spite of the poor economy in this area and the gas prices. We are averageing 28 dogs per hunt. But other than the Walker Sectional, our hunts have not drawn a single GrNt. I have not seen a GrNt hunted at any club level non-section nite hunt. Look at the results section of Bloodlines. Very few of the hunt results show a GrNt winner.
As for a Perf Program for show dogs, I have no opinion but I think Todd is dead on with his worries about the complaint level.

Posted by georgef072007 on 07-08-2008 05:01 PM:

As for right now, I agree with Jim about the entries

However, what I said was that we are seeing a lot more interest in hunting them. There aren't that many GRNT's in our area that are performance dogs right now, however, if you ask the guys that own them they sure want the entries in the GRNT to go up. Most of the UKC GRNTCH dogs in the past (at least the local dogs here) have skipped the UKC hunts in favor of the other kennel club because there was nothing more to gain here. Now that there is, I'll bet that you will see them starting to come out and hunt once their numbers are high enough.

Posted by on 07-08-2008 05:09 PM:

You may be right. I hope so.

Posted by brindle_boone on 07-08-2008 05:19 PM:

I agree with Tod fully....a BS judge is all opinion...he may feel that this dog has better somethin or other than this dog so he is going with that dog when your opinion could be completely opposite....Not to forget the friends of the bench show judge...they would probably be coming out of the arena with a couple hundred buck that they didnt deserve because they are friends....I call that "the buddy system"....just a thought....

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Posted by Megan Rimel on 07-08-2008 06:03 PM:

This isnt a bad idea, I do agree with todd, however there will be complaints no matter what. This would help with expense and possibly more attending the shows knowing that money can be made, as for the "buddy system" IMO this could happen even in the hunts or most events regardless, I have seen favortism in shows but more sore losers than anything, I understand nobody goes to lose but there are so! many nice quality dogs out there but good sportmanship would to be congratulate and focus and try harder for the next one!

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Posted by corky crowder on 07-08-2008 06:46 PM:

the buddy system is bad enough now. dont get me wrong there are a lot of good honest judges out there but there is a lot of whose behind the dog that gose on to

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Posted by Robert Welch on 07-08-2008 07:25 PM:

Thought of this!

quote:
Originally posted by todd kellam
Am I the only one that gets an uneasy feeling about Bench Show Judges looking over a full show arena of dogs and then pointing to a dog and awarding him a few hundred dollars? Probably because I can picture the Monday morning phone calls already. We can discuss but I gotta say....makes me squirm a little.

I agree payolla,kick backs, share the wealth or what ever you want to call it might be a problem in having a performance program for the shows. We all know it happens in the purina point shows now(Buddy system) but don't really talk about it on here as it would get deleted any way. I personally believe that the purina points have corrupted our National breed shows. They have stopped being Breed shows and are now Purina points shows!There will be problems with any thing you implement to help the shows untill you eleminate the human bench show judge out of the picture LOL!Right now there is no viable way to do that!!!

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Posted by smokin-1-mo on 07-08-2008 08:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM

As for a Perf Program for show dogs, I have no opinion but I think Todd is dead on with his worries about the complaint level. [/B]

jim now im in shock...............no opinion.........lol

here is my thought on performance money for bench shows.......
it a old saying...YOU DONT GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING...........

Posted by SUGARBUSH on 07-08-2008 08:39 PM:

Judge

Why not have a panel to judge them, kinda like what i have seen at the pkc shows.. three or 4 people evaluate them and right it on a paper don't show it to anyone, and then hand them to master of hounds majority rules.. Just my opinion, im not much in the show thing, but anything to help the attendance.. pete

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Posted by smokin-1-mo on 07-08-2008 08:49 PM:

Re: Judge

quote:
Originally posted by SUGARBUSH
Why not have a panel to judge them, kinda like what i have seen at the pkc shows.. three or 4 people evaluate them and right it on a paper don't show it to anyone, and then hand them to master of hounds majority rules.. Just my opinion, im not much in the show thing, but anything to help the attendance.. pete

that crazy right there,i may have to call you and give you what for ....you have been out in the heat to long slim ..you know not to mention that other kc over here /...........lol

how is our buddy charlie doing....

Posted by H. L. Meyer on 07-08-2008 09:13 PM:

SUGARBUSH

Sorta like the sound of that. Come on Todd have you lost your Monday morning enthusiam, Hum just think Saturday at let's say hunky bunky Ga State bench show with 176 dogs and old one eyed rusty who ain't won but two shows all year long wins say $350.00 do you realy think the switch board in your office would lite up on Monday morning. YOU BETCHA
Yea you ain't got enough to do so jump on the band wagon and get it started today, Na I ain't gona judge one for you.
O yea let's follow along behind P K C bench show program. WOW I forgot they don't have p k c shows anymore so much for the 3, 4 panel judge program.
Robert why not have a mouse judge you know put the dogs on a bench with a number let the little mouse out of a cage he runs around inside a walled ares huns in a hole with a # and the dog on that bench WINS. You know take all of the crooks out judging.
Breed days yesser who won B&T days, Walker days, English Days, Redbone days you get the Idea.
COMONE TODD put a littke excitement into showing again.

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Posted by Robert Welch on 07-08-2008 10:25 PM:

Re: SUGARBUSH

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer

Robert why not have a mouse judge you know put the dogs on a bench with a number let the little mouse out of a cage he runs around inside a walled ares huns in a hole with a # and the dog on that bench WINS. You know take all of the crooks out judging.
Breed days yesser who won B&T days, Walker days, English Days, Redbone days you get the Idea.
COMONE TODD put a littke excitement into showing again. [/B]

H. L. I was being a little sarcastic!! Like this! Why not just run all the dogs through a computer generated profile that scans the bone structure scans for all elements of the breeds standards and then creates a number for the points that dog earns by how it conforms to the standard! All we would have to do when the dog is entered is present the easy entry card and then the score sheet as scored by the computer program. Highest point dog wins. Totally eleminate the human element and the SPORT of it all. Once you are beaten by a dog with a higher point total there would be no need to enter against that dog again. You know you wouldn't win against that dog. The shows would be totally fair but there would be no sport left in it. What fun would that be? I knew this thread would head this way. The question is how to implement bench show programs and keep it fair to every one with the human element for greed and error? Any viable ideas any one?

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Posted by burdette on 07-08-2008 10:45 PM:

not a good idea that would just get more people breeding dogs that cant tree coon and create more culls. dont get me wrong i enjoy the bench shows but i enjoy easier starting pups that can tree coon better then dogs that stand pretty. this is my opinion and its not meant to make anyone mad.

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Posted by daustin on 07-08-2008 11:32 PM:

I like the idea of a perf program for the bench. I can see the problem with complaints. However, why not set up a point system for each area of the dog. So dog one could score 10 pts on head and ears, 20 points on legs, feet, etc. This would be turned in by the judge to the UKC for each dog entered. If there is a dispute then the UKC could look up the score sheets for that dog over a few events and compare scores. A dog should not be able to score a 2 on head under one judge and a 10 by another.

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Posted by al jackson on 07-09-2008 12:57 AM:

the performance program was designed for dogs that hunt not for dogs that smell like fee fee our shine like a new penny our lay on the couch all day.this is crazy.
tell me how much money do you want them to get for a best of show the same as a real coon treeing coondog.
this would do nothing more then cause alot of cheating as the show dog of the year thing has our what ever you call it,guys will bring 4 our 5 dogs to the show have there buddy stand them on the bench and make no effort to show them so ole coach potato gets more show wins.get real.

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Posted by daustin on 07-09-2008 03:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by al jackson
the performance program was designed for dogs that hunt not for dogs that smell like fee fee our shine like a new penny our lay on the couch all day.this is crazy.
tell me how much money do you want them to get for a best of show the same as a real coon treeing coondog.
this would do nothing more then cause alot of cheating as the show dog of the year thing has our what ever you call it,guys will bring 4 our 5 dogs to the show have there buddy stand them on the bench and make no effort to show them so ole coach potato gets more show wins.get real.

Are you saying that the dogs on the bench never see the woods? Just about every dog in every show I have been in leave the bench and enter the NH. Maybe there are a few people here that believe that the breed standard talks about how a dog should look in order to perform in optimally in the woods. I have yet to read a breed standard that states how a dog should hunt or tree. A REAL coondog should have the ability to do it on the bench and in the woods.

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Posted by dkrause on 07-09-2008 04:06 AM:

i'm ok with it as long as it is a completely seprate program that you need to say spend an extra $100 on your stud to enroll and maybe an extra 10 per litter or something. on that note i'd say its safe to say thats a bit of money ukc would never get outa me

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Posted by al jackson on 07-09-2008 06:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by daustin
Are you saying that the dogs on the bench never see the woods? Just about every dog in every show I have been in leave the bench and enter the NH. Maybe there are a few people here that believe that the breed standard talks about how a dog should look in order to perform in optimally in the woods. I have yet to read a breed standard that states how a dog should hunt or tree. A REAL coondog should have the ability to do it on the bench and in the woods.

most cases the show dogs never see the woods.they will drive along way to show then go home around here.i seen yours is a show dog tell me about his night hunt wins.

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Posted by daustin on 07-09-2008 09:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by al jackson
most cases the show dogs never see the woods.they will drive along way to show then go home around here.i seen yours is a show dog tell me about his night hunt wins.

My dog is not ready for the night hunts yet. He gets hunted 2-4 times a week. I will not have a dog that is just a show dog nor would I have a dog that would be just a night hunt dog. Proper conformation is essential to any breeding program.

Dane

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Posted by Pigeon on 07-09-2008 10:21 PM:

Re: Judge

quote:
Originally posted by SUGARBUSH
Why not have a panel to judge them, kinda like what i have seen at the pkc shows.. three or 4 people evaluate them and right it on a paper don't show it to anyone, and then hand them to master of hounds majority rules.. Just my opinion, im not much in the show thing, but anything to help the attendance.. pete

I think all big shows should be run this way. 3 judges, each pick there top 3. Kinda like how the MVP award in sports are ran. Better than one persons opinion on that day.

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