UKC Forums - North VS. South????

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-- North VS. South???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928272157)

Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-23-2012 05:35 PM:

North VS. South????

Okay guys, I'm NOT wanting to start a flame war here....actually just the opposite, I want to understand the whole "thin coon" point of view.

I've read a whole lot of posts lately debating the whole "thin coon vs thick coon" point of view and as hard as I try....I just don't get it. Now I realize that there is going to be an ongoing debate because we all have opinions. I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's beliefs, but how can you say that a dog that spends two hours beating around on the only coon track in thousands of acres is a "better" dog.

Hey, I'll be the first one to admit that I want a good, BALANCED, dog. That means one that can go hunting, find a coon (be it 50 yards, or two miles), trail, tree, stay treed...blah, blah, blah. And I normally have one that is as close to that as I can.....BUT

Having hunted several times in "thin" coon, I just can't get past the luck factor that is far more prevalent in thin coon populations I mean if you turn 4 dogs loose and they each go to different point on the compass, and they all hunt out well, and at the end of a two hour hunt only one of them has actually struck a track managed to trail it up and tree.....someone please tell me how that is the "better" dog.

Coon hounds are the only dogs that I've ever seen have this argument. I've never heard of a beagle hunt where they pride themselves in having a low rabbit population, I've never seen a bird dog field trial participant slap each other on the back because there was only one bird to be pointed, or a squirrel dog hunt participant proud because they treed the only squirrel in four square miles....

I once drove 14 hours south, hunted for two nights and hunted hard.....ended up getting in a cast and we turned loose in thousands of acres of three year old pine trees. The guide freely admitted that there were no coon anywhere close. The three local dogs in the cast consisted of a dog that made a bucket sweep, and never got out of our lights....got scratched for not hunting. The other two got struck on a diller, ran it for about 50 yards or so and shut up....the two participants owning those dogs stated that the dogs "trailed over the hill" and would not put the track time on them....we finally found them treed, about 4 miles from where we turned them loose along a river. Both dogs were treed on small trees that had some leaves on them, and despite the fact that they were slick...got circled. I found my dog three miles the other direction, still in pine trees and never even drew a bark......

Now, how were those dogs any "better" than the one I brought....???

Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war, I am seeking a better understanding for myself.

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Posted by warn on 09-23-2012 05:38 PM:

"BECAUSE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by tree_dogs on 09-23-2012 05:41 PM:

war

I could give you my opinion of that Joe ,BUT really don't want in this war either !!!!! LOL LOL Call me sometime ! 765-825-6561

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 09-23-2012 05:44 PM:

why would you want 4 to go in the oppsite direction?i want 1
that can take the track away and beat the rest to the tree
and the 1 that trees 1st is the best track dog right?

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-23-2012 05:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
why would you want 4 to go in the oppsite direction?i want 1
that can take the track away and beat the rest to the tree
and the 1 that trees 1st is the best track dog right?

A track? Any track, be it a diller, possum, deer or sasquatch? I'm still trying to understand how a dog can hold 100 strike for two hours

I have dogs that go hunting, and are not concerned with what the other dogs are doing. Yup, I want em quick too....but how can you tell if they have to hunt for a half hour to find a track to "run"????

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 09-23-2012 06:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
A track? Any track, be it a diller, possum, deer or sasquatch? I'm still trying to understand how a dog can hold 100 strike for two hours

I have dogs that go hunting, and are not concerned with what the other dogs are doing. Yup, I want em quick too....but how can you tell if they have to hunt for a half hour to find a track to "run"????

who gives a rats you cant plus them to you tree them.
you thank the other dogs that could hear didnt go check it

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Posted by Cashie Swamp on 09-23-2012 06:21 PM:

I aint in this but I live in eastern NC and the coons are thin I'm not complaining about my coon population but I went to A.O. we hunted 2 nights pleasure hunting and man we were treeing coons left and right I aint saying it was easier but the tracks seem to be every where unlike here in NC thats all I'll say.......

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 09-23-2012 06:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cashie Swamp
I aint in this but I live in eastern NC and the coons are thin I'm not complaining about my coon population but I went to A.O. we hunted 2 nights pleasure hunting and man we were treeing coons left and right I aint saying it was easier but the tracks seem to be every where unlike here in NC thats all I'll say.......

we hunted a show dog and treed 3 in 40 min. shine time and all
never got a bark on the ground training young dogs would have
to be easy.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 09-23-2012 06:34 PM:

I've been in both. Live where they are real thin. I'll take my chances where coon are fat and sassy and plentiful. Course I have zero for dog power right now. So I don't care where they have what.

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Posted by Ashley Pratt on 09-23-2012 06:38 PM:

Well living in Iowa and spending 99% of my time hunting in the midwest I see no reason to breed for a "southern style" hound, nor do I expect a southern hunter to breed for "northern style" dog. Who gives a **** what type of dog we pack, pay your own feed bill and hunt what suits you. So sick of the north vs south dog comparison.

Posted by micooner on 09-23-2012 06:57 PM:

I think those "thin coon" guys are just more sociable, They turn ol' spot loose an blue loose then sit around an bs for awhile, maybe even start a fire for an hour or so waiting and waiting and......there he goes he's treed,,,,over yonder JMHO

Posted by Cashie Swamp on 09-23-2012 07:02 PM:

lol micooner naw I just own dogs that check back after 30all minutes or so and move on to the next spot

Posted by micooner on 09-23-2012 07:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cashie Swamp
lol micooner naw I just own dogs that check back after 30all minutes or so and move on to the next spot

I don't think there is a dog up here in Mi,Oh, or Ind, bred like that anymore. lol

Posted by yadkinriver on 09-23-2012 07:39 PM:

Swore I'd never get in a dicussion on here again but there is some common sense involved in this north / south thing.First, if you hunt in thin coon you need a dog that is a little different in style than one hunted in thick coon. In thick coon if your dog covers another dog you can give him a good thrashing and send him on, make him independent as you want. In thin coon you are going to get your butt handed to you a lot of nights with this independent dog. Sure helps to have a good fast track dog that can take it away from the others and get first tree in thin places. To me, this is real competition. You just have to have a dog that will cover another dog. You might not get first strike but the right kind of dog will get you first tree and that pays more.
Second, the territory has something to do with it. Before I start I will say they are exceptios to everything and I've seem it go both ways. Take a dog out of the south that is used to hunting and running in swamps, green briars and cutover timber and teach him fences, take him north to the big open woods and he thinks he's in heaven. Now take that northern dog south to the thick and rough conditions and it makes a difference. I know, I've seen northern dogs fall right in and do good in the south but that is usually the exception. There are good dogs in both places that will look good in both places. They are called coondogs.

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-23-2012 08:00 PM:

what i can't figure out is why people from the south think there the only ones that have swamps, cutovers, briar thickets. hell i can drive 20 minutes in either direction of my house and hunt that. and i also can drop in a section where a dog will have to go 1/2 to 3/4 mile to get struck. my guess is virtualy every state has some chit hole hunting if you look for it. the bottom line is find out what the hunting conditions are and prep the dog for it. if you have a dog that looks good in thin coon, go enter. if you don't, dont waist your money. same goes for thick coon..if you don't prep your dog it's nobodies fault but your own. i just don't buy this north south crap.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-23-2012 08:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
Swore I'd never get in a dicussion on here again but there is some common sense involved in this north / south thing.First, if you hunt in thin coon you need a dog that is a little different in style than one hunted in thick coon. In thick coon if your dog covers another dog you can give him a good thrashing and send him on, make him independent as you want. In thin coon you are going to get your butt handed to you a lot of nights with this independent dog. Sure helps to have a good fast track dog that can take it away from the others and get first tree in thin places. To me, this is real competition. You just have to have a dog that will cover another dog. You might not get first strike but the right kind of dog will get you first tree and that pays more.
Second, the territory has something to do with it. Before I start I will say they are exceptios to everything and I've seem it go both ways. Take a dog out of the south that is used to hunting and running in swamps, green briars and cutover timber and teach him fences, take him north to the big open woods and he thinks he's in heaven. Now take that northern dog south to the thick and rough conditions and it makes a difference. I know, I've seen northern dogs fall right in and do good in the south but that is usually the exception. There are good dogs in both places that will look good in both places. They are called coondogs.

The difference is that I'm not whoopin mine into being independent.....I'm breeding them to be independent. I'll live by the sword and die by the sword as far as independence goes. I'd rather "lose" than have a cover dog....Now, having said that, I really don't mind if my dog trees with yours if we get struck early on, and they run the same track, but if they are gone more than four or five minutes I want mine to do it's own work!

And while it's not "fun", I make it a point to spend plenty of time in swamps, green briars, multi-flora rose, cutover, nasty stuff as I can. I'm challenging my young dogs to find a coon and tree a coon in those places. We have beaver swamps, briar thickets, cutover (logged out hardwood lots), rock bluffs and all sorts of "I ain't never comin back to this spot" spots.

The biggest difference I think is expectations. There are folks that truly believe that there is a coon hiding up every bush up here.....and I've seen times and places where I might be convinced to agree with them......but not very often. I've had dogs go 10 feet from where we turn them loose, I've had them tree coon right beside the truck, but I've also had them go way over a mile to get treed. I have been hunting LOTS of times when you couldn't buy a coon....ANYHERE.

None of that changes my question....I'm not talking about getting struck on junk, falling off on a coon type dogs, those don't impress me as "track dogs"....and I'm not talking about the hot nosed "pop-up" dogs that can only tree a hot one that won't run more than 50 yards....

I'm talking about the cream of the crop...top of the line dogs...what REALLY makes a southern dog that goes the right direction and gets under the only coon in four square miles better than the northern dog that hunts just as hard, goes just as far, but doesn't have the "luck" with them that night to find a coon to tree.....any better?

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Posted by Cashie Swamp on 09-23-2012 08:08 PM:

Dan Dogs this is just good ole conversation no hard feels to be taken (hopefully). Its interesting to see what folks think. Problem with my gunting is 95%a of it is in knee deep and deeper swamp I am not complaining just saying. Hope this thing dont get outta hand I enjoy good conversation with die hard hunters like my self

Posted by Cashie Swamp on 09-23-2012 08:08 PM:

Posted by Tim Trone on 09-23-2012 08:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by micooner
I think those "thin coon" guys are just more sociable, They turn ol' spot loose an blue loose then sit around an bs for awhile, maybe even start a fire for an hour or so waiting and waiting and......there he goes he's treed,,,,over yonder JMHO

We love to sit around and talk crap. Its relaxing to build a fire and listen to dogs work an old feed track . Some nights you may sit for awhile and some nights its quick. Either way it is relaxing. I think in the south its harder to make up for your mistakes or ogs mistakes with the thinner coons. .

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-23-2012 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cashie Swamp
Dan Dogs this is just good ole conversation no hard feels to be taken (hopefully). Its interesting to see what folks think. Problem with my gunting is 95%a of it is in knee deep and deeper swamp I am not complaining just saying. Hope this thing dont get outta hand I enjoy good conversation with die hard hunters like my self

no hard feelings here!! didn't mean it to sound like it. just saying if you prepare your dog right they will tree coons anywhere coons run. if you care to ever come up to wi. i'm sure i could put you in some hunting where you would feel right at home. the wisonsin river bottoms have all kinds of swamps and slews to make your hard hat float..

Posted by otherwise on 09-23-2012 08:22 PM:

leaves on the trees

I hunted the first round(cast 18) and ended up with a dead cast.I was satisfied with the area that we hunted.It is typical for what I hunt.It was pine leading down to a nice bottom with hardwood,small creeks with some water.We saw coon tracks in the creek bottoms.We made trees but the biggest problem that we had were the leaves. I think that if a hunt is going to be in the south,UKC should consider a later time in the year.Im sure there would have been better scores if we could see the tree!

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Posted by Cashie Swamp on 09-23-2012 08:27 PM:

I agree with that have the hunt with no leaves and stop all these circles unless its a legit hollow.

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-23-2012 08:30 PM:

i think the finals should be the end of march no matter where it is held.

Posted by prostockpat on 09-23-2012 09:41 PM:

all major hunts

should be in spring or late fall with no leaves!!!
enter the coondog and eliminate the hot nosed tree dogs fast!!

Posted by groworg1 on 09-23-2012 09:43 PM:

not all of us up north live in thick coons and when january comes around and its zero with the wind blowing 20 mph you ain't treeing crap with any dog i don't care how good he is your just going to get lots of fresh air and a den or two !

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