UKC Forums - Scoring question?

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Posted by Frank M on 09-12-2016 01:34 PM:

Scoring question?

4 dog cast; Dogs A,B,C are struck, dogs A,B treed. Going into the tree handler of dog C trees his dog split. Score dogs A,B (with a coon) going to dog C. Now for the question: Do you release dogs A,B into dog D (who has not been struck) or are dogs A,B leash locked? Rule 11 b. states handler has the option to turn dogs loose back into "OPENING' dogs if 1 dog is declared treed. But it say's nothing about turning dog(s) loose if the dog is just competing for a strike position.

To me this is giving dog D an unfair advantage. Score dog C turn these 3 loose and dog D opens right after (first 3 or 4 seconds) he goes in for 100 not 25 or what ever. I know if I'm dog A or B I want mine off the leash competing. Cant score points on the leash.

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Posted by JiM on 09-12-2016 02:57 PM:

You have the choice to cast or lead those dogs, they are not leash locked. This question came up right after this rule was put in place and we were told the wording of 11(b) would be corrected but it never was.

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Posted by Night Shift on 09-12-2016 02:57 PM:

No A and B are leash locked because dog C is treed and dog D has not opened. But as soon as dog D opens and is struck in you're free to turn loose.

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Posted by JiM on 09-12-2016 03:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Night Shift
No A and B are leash locked because dog C is treed and dog D has not opened. But as soon as dog D opens and is struck in you're free to turn loose.

Well I may he wrong but I'm prolly not.

Posted by Night Shift on 09-12-2016 03:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well I may he wrong but I'm prolly not.

We had a similar situation happen in the Grand 16. My dog was treed 500 yards away with dog B and C handled dog D hadn't opened. The non hunting judge never gave them an option to cut loose. I figured it was because dog D had not opened. Can't be trailing if it isn't struck in.

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Posted by JiM on 09-12-2016 03:28 PM:

It was discussed on here shortly after the rule was passed. The treed dog breaks the 8 so dogs A&B have their option to cast or lead. I think your non-hunting judge at the 16 was wrong. I'll see if I can find the thread where it was discussed.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 09-12-2016 03:29 PM:

Re: Scoring question?

quote:
Originally posted by Frank M
4 dog cast; Dogs A,B,C are struck, dogs A,B treed. Going into the tree handler of dog C trees his dog split. Score dogs A,B (with a coon) going to dog C. Now for the question: Do you release dogs A,B into dog D (who has not been struck) or are dogs A,B leash locked? Rule 11 b. states handler has the option to turn dogs loose back into "OPENING' dogs if 1 dog is declared treed. But it say's nothing about turning dog(s) loose if the dog is just competing for a strike position.

To me this is giving dog D an unfair advantage. Score dog C turn these 3 loose and dog D opens right after (first 3 or 4 seconds) he goes in for 100 not 25 or what ever. I know if I'm dog A or B I want mine off the leash competing. Cant score points on the leash.

Any dog off the leash is to be considered trailing so A and B have the choice of turning loose or walking into dog C tree.

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Posted by Frank M on 09-12-2016 03:50 PM:

Jim,
I seem to remember the same as you do about the wording being changed. But I wasn't 100% certain so I had to go by the back of the card.

Hoosier Man 1,
I'm sorry but I disagree with "a dog competing for a position be considered to be trailing". If that was true we wouldn't need the 8 min. rule.

Posted by JiM on 09-12-2016 04:04 PM:

Here is Paul Frederichs answer from back when he was writing the Advisor.
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quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
They have the option

Patches is correct. The handlers have the option to cut as long as one dog is still at-large.
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Note he said "still at large", no mention of having to be struck in.

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Posted by Night Shift on 09-12-2016 05:04 PM:

What if the fourth dog is standing at your feet and has the time started for not hunting. It's not at large

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Posted by JiM on 09-12-2016 05:08 PM:

My guess is that if he is not treed or leashed, he is at large.

Posted by Tim MACHA on 09-12-2016 06:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
My guess is that if he is not treed or leashed, he is at large.

I agree with Jim on this one. As long as there is a dog out competing, whether opened or not.

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Posted by rob thompson on 09-12-2016 10:29 PM:

This is good to know but what do you do if the judge insists you keep your dog on a leash? Say the judge doesnt know this and I recast and he throws a fit? What do you do then? Is this cleared up in the advisor if so what page?

Posted by GA DAWG on 09-12-2016 10:53 PM:

If it's not written. You'll lose a question on it. Flat out. I knew in pkc you could cut loose like that but didn't really know you could in ukc.

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Posted by jimbob_walker on 09-12-2016 11:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
I agree with Jim on this one. As long as there is a dog out competing, whether opened or not.

this question came up in a hunt I was on one night. I had minuses out and stayed out with the cast. 3 dogs left a and b were treed and scored and dog c was out. Judge said no one could cut loose til dog c had opened. The judge was a friend , but I questioned him on it. I told him that didn't seem fair to the dogs on a lead. The next day we both called ukc and we're told you could not cut loose until dog c opened. I believe it was Allen who we had both talked to.

Posted by JiM on 09-13-2016 12:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jimbob_walker
this question came up in a hunt I was on one night. I had minuses out and stayed out with the cast. 3 dogs left a and b were treed and scored and dog c was out. Judge said no one could cut loose til dog c had opened. The judge was a friend , but I questioned him on it. I told him that didn't seem fair to the dogs on a lead. The next day we both called ukc and we're told you could not cut loose until dog c opened. I believe it was Allen who we had both talked to.

Yes, that's correct but in this example a dog s treed and that treed dog breaks the 8.

Posted by MARSHALL AYERS on 09-13-2016 12:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
It was discussed on here shortly after the rule was passed. The treed dog breaks the 8 so dogs A&B have their option to cast or lead. I think your non-hunting judge at the 16 was wrong. I'll see if I can find the thread where it was discussed.

How does that work??

If A&B are on the leash and C is declared treed dog d is not declared stuck how can you cut a dog loose? How does C break the 8? C is declared treed there for leash locking the dogs because D isn't open there is nothing to cut to. The only other dog declared struck is also treed therefore leash locking the dogs

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Posted by JiM on 09-13-2016 02:03 AM:

There is no requirement for a dog to be struck before you can exercise your option to cast, a dog just has to be loose.
If a dog is treed and a dog is loose, you can cast or lead, that is your option. And a treed dog treeing breaks the 8 just like a trailing dog that opens.

Posted by jimbob_walker on 09-13-2016 02:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
There is no requirement for a dog to be struck before you can exercise your option to cast, a dog just has to be loose.
If a dog is treed and a dog is loose, you can cast or lead, that is your option. And a treed dog treeing breaks the 8 just like a trailing dog that opens.

I agree with your opinion, bit Allen told me opposite. You have to walk back to where you last heard the dog open, start the 8 with the other dogs on the leash. Said you can't release those dogs til the dog who is out opens or the 8 gets the dog.

Posted by jimbob_walker on 09-13-2016 02:30 AM:

Maybe the difference in this particular situation was the dog out was already struck in.

Posted by Greg Burks on 09-13-2016 02:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jimbob_walker
I agree with your opinion, bit Allen told me opposite. You have to walk back to where you last heard the dog open, start the 8 with the other dogs on the leash. Said you can't release those dogs til the dog who is out opens or the 8 gets the dog.

The dog was never struck in so there is no 8....

Posted by MARSHALL AYERS on 09-13-2016 03:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Greg Burks
The dog was never struck in so there is no 8....

If there is no 8 going on dog D because he is not stuck and dog C is treed. Why wouldn't you be leash locked?

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Posted by MARSHALL AYERS on 09-13-2016 03:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Greg Burks
The dog was never struck in so there is no 8....

If there is no 8 going on dog D because he is not stuck and dog C is treed. Why wouldn't you be leash locked?

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Posted by JiM on 09-13-2016 04:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jimbob_walker
I agree with your opinion, bit Allen told me opposite. You have to walk back to where you last heard the dog open, start the 8 with the other dogs on the leash. Said you can't release those dogs til the dog who is out opens or the 8 gets the dog.

That would be correct if no dog as treed. In this situation, you got a dog treed and that treed dog breaks the 8 which allows you to cast.

Posted by Rip on 09-13-2016 04:26 AM:

Because I distinctly remember this conversation.

The rule does read "opening" but I was told officially here on the board that was an oversight and that really they meant competing for strike.

I didn't agree with it because that's not what the words on the card say and we are still dealing with the english language but I abide by it because it was the official interpretation of the rule.

I am not sure but I think it was Allan that gave us that one during that particular discussion. I was arguing that a dog had to be opening/struck in and I was told I was wrong. I hate being wrong so I remember it LOL.

The wording was supposed to get changed but I see it hasn't.

So basically the rule is if a dog is competing for strike you have the option to turn loose.

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