UKC Forums - Pup Prices ?? Are you kidding me?

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-- Pup Prices ?? Are you kidding me? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=427928)

Posted by Whordel on 01-22-2012 10:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
So when someone comes to you with $1,000 for a pup, I'd much rather put that pup in those hands than someone that doesn't want to pay anything or just a couple hundred bucks. In most cases, the $1,000 dog is going to get 1,000 more chances to become what it was bred to do than the free or cheap dog. Most of those cheapos wind up in the pound. I don't want any of my puppies in the pound, they aren't doing me or anyone else any good there!

If I had to give a $1,000 pup a 1,000 chances I would be be giving it a dirt nap on the river bank free of charge by me.

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Posted by easttxranch on 03-30-2012 06:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
So when someone comes to you with $1,000 for a pup, I'd much rather put that pup in those hands than someone that doesn't want to pay anything or just a couple hundred bucks. In most cases, the $1,000 dog is going to get 1,000 more chances to become what it was bred to do than the free or cheap dog. Most of those cheapos wind up in the pound. I don't want any of my puppies in the pound, they aren't doing me or anyone else any good there!

Your probably right. I think a lot of people are refering to people that like to hunt, want a good hunting dog, just can't afford anything more than a $150-$200 pup. There are a lot of good coonhunters that just cant afford to pay $1000 for a pup.

Posted by skeets on 03-30-2012 08:43 AM:

if i was going to pay a thousand dollars for a dog i would want to know it can do more than eat from mama, but if someone wants to pay that well thats great, i hope he makes you a great dog. ive seen a few dogs that could have been bought for a thousand that could show a man quite a few coons. the mama dog is just as important as the stud dog and i think we forget that sometimes.

Posted by Redwood Hounds on 03-31-2012 01:52 AM:

It's not cheap to raise pups. I have 2 litters on the ground with a total of 10 pups. I am keeping 2 possibly 3. I owe 4th to someone. So that's 6 pups to sell. I ask $400. I have over $1500 into these pups. That's shots, microchips, worming, papers, and one of the Mom's had a C-section. I luckily didn't pay a Stud fee because I own the male. This doesn't include he price of feed, at $40 for a 30# bag of puppy food the Mom's have been sucking down for a month and the pups will eat for the next 9 weeks.... I am just barely going to make a profit of the price of one pup by time this is all said and done. And I DO guarantee my pups!

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Posted by CSnowgren on 03-31-2012 05:35 AM:

I never understood why people think they deserve to make money or to even break even when they willingly participate in a hobby that costs money. All of the rationalizations on what this and that costs or how much goes into a litter...hello McFly you knew that before you did it. Be willing to pay it so you can do it, don't expect others to pay your way for you. Nobody owes you anything for your efforts at breeding.

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Posted by old ben on 03-31-2012 12:45 PM:

i am thankful for those old fellers that give me a pup as a kid didnt cost one red cent lol

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Posted by starplott on 03-31-2012 03:41 PM:

I am glad you are thankful, as most people are not. They want the same or more service and requirements with rediculous expectarions for free (or cheap) as a higher priced pup.

A good case in point was not too long ago a friend sold a 900 puppy (not a hound) with all the quarantees for $300 on contract they would get a basic obedience title (about $100 out of pocket). What a nightmare! Months later she was called a crook and everything else. Nothing weong w pup. They just did not want to put the effort in to get CD title. That is the equiv to getting a $300 puppy from a top breeder for $100 on condition you will get the hunt test. They ended up happy as they went back and paid outright and voided all parts of the contract in its entirety (dumb).

What gets me about high priced pups is not so much the price, I have 2 breeds that fetch well over 1200 a puppy. I don't charge that much for the same quality under same contract, with same guarantees and health certs. You can buy inferior dogs w no work drive from questionable parents for 650 from somebody's back yard.

What gets me is the people that pay $300 stud fee and want 500+ for a dirty kennel puppy with no written contracts for guaranteeing the pup, no heath tests for genetic defects on parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and others for several generations. No socialization, cheap vaccines, and little to no worming. From unproven reproducers that have no titles, etc.

So basically, they want more money for a 200 puppy with no extra benefit or effort being put into a pup.

Health tests, titles, decent food, time spent socializing, decent vaccines, services that go with backing up guarantees and supporting a buyer are all expensive. Easy to get 5000 into a dog before breeding. Stud fees for what I have are 950-1500 (not counting travel, vet, AI, raising a litter, etc).

I will NOT pay more than 350 for a well bred coonhound unless the breeders have stepped up and done their part to health cert their breeding stock, show me the added benefit of putting quality into raising the pups to maximize a good start (atta boy high pro being raised in a barn doesn't work), and guarantees what they breed. Outside of that, they are just taking $ they have not earned or deserve. I expect puppy sellers to be very selective where their pups go and not sell to anybody with cash. I surely don't want part of buying a pup from a breeder that contributes to the pound population. I definitely don't want such in my breeding program. Why pay the high price when I can pick the same thing up at the shelter? The more I pay for a pup the more expectations I have for breeder and pup.

Having been a hound hunter over 20 years and being part of other venues of breeding/competing dogs for 30...there is not ONE coonhound breeder out there breeding $1000 quality pups. They might have popularity of noted reproducers, but they don't have that plus generations of documented health certs, etc. Part might be there, but what goes into a 1000 puppy is not all there. When breeders step up and show me 1000 puppies, I don't have an issue paying the price. But I am not going to pay 1000 price for a 300 valued puppy.

My expectations of a 1000 a pup litter is far higher than what coonhound breeders are willing to put forth. Therefore, I pay 1000 for my other breeds gladly who come w solid guarantees and documented health certs back to the 1980's, and from heavily titled working dogs who are still able to compete and work in their double digits as commonplace. That to me is worth 1000 for a pup.

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Posted by starplott on 03-31-2012 04:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CSnowgren
I never understood why people think they deserve to make money or to even break even when they willingly participate in a hobby that costs money. All of the rationalizations on what this and that costs or how much goes into a litter...hello McFly you knew that before you did it. Be willing to pay it so you can do it, don't expect others to pay your way for you. Nobody owes you anything for your efforts at breeding.

I was told as a kid by some very noted breeders (not coonhounds) that IF you are doing it right, you MAY at some point break even at best. There's no money in being a reputable breeder and only ones making money are puppymillers and people who breed for $ with little care for their dogs, pups, and where they go.

In 30 years I have found that to be true. Even with my other breeds who fetch $1000 ave a pup, there's no proffit. I'd have to sell 12 pups to pay for dog food for the year to break even. 3 pups for health certs for the year and shots/vet checks, 2 pups for comp entry fees, 1 pup for memberships, 3 for entry fees in my venues to title, 1 pup for stud service, 6 for travel for comp/meeting owners part way/hotel and travel to ship pups and health certs.

That's like 28 pups, not counting equipment costs for kennels, training equip, replacement of damaged stuff from dogs, injury vet bills if any, clothing to compete/train in, bedding/shavings (which run me another 2 pups a year), god forbid we add in my time/house sitters when I am gone, etc.

Figure about 40 pups a year to make a 1000 proffit at $1000 a puppy. No way can I do justice raising 4 litters of pups a year! 3 is pushing it! I spose I could do it if I spent 30k a year on staff to employ and bred females every heat and put out 20 litters a year, might make a proffit that way...but at what cost?

If somebody is into breeding dogs...there is NO proffit if you are doing it right. At least not the financial kind.

You want proffit...run a training facility, boarding facility, pet store or some sort of SERVICE for dog owners. That is where there is money to fund your breeding program.

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Posted by bob logan on 03-31-2012 10:34 PM:

? pup

pup prices are getting a little out of hand.if pepole stop buying from them coonhound puppy mills the price might drop. or get a nice female breed her to your male of choice keep a pup or 2 and sell the rest of the litter cheep. make your stud fee back . call it good. thats what im going to try.

Posted by Nelson Kirkland on 03-31-2012 10:37 PM:

I think we finally found a post that is sponsored by the Democratic Party. Carry On.

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Posted by Adam Hibbs on 03-31-2012 10:51 PM:

Mr. Kirkland you hit the nail on the head!!! Sounds like everyone expects someone else to put in the hard work and take all the risk and then everyone should get a free or cheap pup!! If you don't like certain puppy prices don't pay them prices. That's what is so great about this great country we call America. People have the right to ask for $1000 for a pup just like people have the right not to pay $1000 for a pup. It is the freedom of speech...... Not the freedom to bit$$ like so many people these days think!!!

Posted by CSnowgren on 03-31-2012 11:26 PM:

lol The entitled have spoken. Buyers must "pay" them for their risk and hard work that buyers of course required them to do. Like I said, a respectable price is cool for everyone. But to rationalize an inflated price with your work and risk is a weak justification. Nobody is making you breed.

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Posted by JiM on 04-01-2012 12:16 AM:

Gotta agree with Mr Snowgren on this one. They will pay what they think it is worth, not what you think it is worth and they don't care how much you sank in to it.

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Posted by Driveshaft on 04-01-2012 12:17 AM:

i think

timothy ball had a lot to do with the outrageous prices..

Posted by Adam Hibbs on 04-01-2012 12:23 AM:

Just like no one is making you BUY!!! If I have a female that I have put a lot of time into training, promoting and titleing out (hard work), why would her pups be cheap? Every time you breed a female you risk her health considerably. We still haven't even touched stud fees, gas, meds and food. I don't think everybody thinks they will get rich breeding but if you get lucky and do make money off of a litter, the money will still go back into your hobby eventually. Coon huntin is a hobby for most and you have to pay to play. I am by no means "entitled", I just know I have to pay for the things I want in coon huntin and in life. I'm not being a smart a$$, hell I don't own a stud dog or even a female. I just dont expect to buy a cheap pup out of good proven hounds.

Posted by belly up on 04-01-2012 01:23 AM:

i have mixed feelings on this the one thing i no for sure is that the hardest hunters that i personally know and im talkin hittin the woods 6 7 nites a week are just like me and the only ones that they can afford are them $150 $200 pups.. So u got to ask ur self are ur pups goin to the hunters or the talkers!

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Posted by CSnowgren on 04-01-2012 01:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Hibbs
Just like no one is making you BUY!!! If I have a female that I have put a lot of time into training, promoting and titleing out (hard work), why would her pups be cheap? Every time you breed a female you risk her health considerably. We still haven't even touched stud fees, gas, meds and food. I don't think everybody thinks they will get rich breeding but if you get lucky and do make money off of a litter, the money will still go back into your hobby eventually. Coon huntin is a hobby for most and you have to pay to play. I am by no means "entitled", I just know I have to pay for the things I want in coon huntin and in life. I'm not being a smart a$$, hell I don't own a stud dog or even a female. I just dont expect to buy a cheap pup out of good proven hounds.

I am still at a loss for what makes folks think they are entitled to a profit when pricing pups when they agreed to the financial output that it takes to participate in a hobby. With the number of unproven breedings that are done, it is equivalent to asking folks to pay you an inflated price to be the guinea pig of their breeding program.

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Posted by Jlogan205 on 04-01-2012 01:47 AM:

I don't see the problem. You're not buying some mutt dog, your paying for a coon dog! That's an investment

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Posted by MTCoonHunter on 04-01-2012 04:06 PM:

Why does everyone think that they should get the best right away?

I worked two jobs as a teenager and was able to buy my first (junker) car, with cash, when I turned 19. Nobody gave me the car or money for the car to "get me started."

My desire right now is to get 10-20 acres of barren, crappy land and a junk trailer to put on it. The second part of that is pouring some concrete and throwing up some fence so I can have a few good hounds. Anything better than that isn't realistic to start with so I'm not whining about "I want this, I want that."

I am living hand-to-mouth at this time. I recently quit smoking because I need the money to go towards this land. I picked up a couple extra jobs for the summer that should net me around $5,000. That $5,000 is for a decent dog--I'll have to save a LOT of money for a decent, finished dog and I know that.

Notice--I saved for a JUNK car and am now saving for some JUNK land. The thought of someone giving me those things or getting those things in GOOD condition w/o hard work and years of saving money is ridiculous.

I have had help along the way in my life in various forms, but nobody is buying me stuff like that.

Accept that it will take years to get "the best."

Posted by matt2 on 04-01-2012 04:21 PM:

you quit paying that high dollar price for that pup and the price will fall. That breeder can't raise all them pups. You keep paying an ignorant price and he'll keep selling them for that and higher.

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-01-2012 04:32 PM:

The market sets the price not the breeder. They are only worth what someone will pay for them. When you consider what it costs to raise a pup for 6 months and the time you spend gettin one going and the fact that only about 1 in 4 on the average have what it takes to make a coondog, fooling with pups is a loosing proposition all the way around but if thats what you like spending a few extra bucks to give yourself the best odds possible is the smarter way to go.

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Posted by matt2 on 04-01-2012 04:37 PM:

I've also seen it said on here that a coon dog is an" INVESTMENT " That's about the craziest thing I ever heard. Land, cattle, stock market, your home, retirement fund, 401k, kids collage fund. These are investments. Investments are something you can make a profit from and a coon dog ain't one of them.i know a lot of coon hunters and I don't know one that has made money on it. Sure there are a few guys that have made a dollar but they had the time and cash to drive thousands of miles bumping a stud dog behind every female he could find. Its not cost worthy to travel all over the nation to try and make money off a coon dog.

Posted by Tyler Williams on 04-01-2012 05:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by hillbilly56
that guy must be ate up with stuipd the rat dogs i been in the woods with was the tree happiest dogs i ever seen jmo

every rat dog I have owned have turned out really nice I have had really good luck with them and won alot there are good and bad in them all though so I no what ya mean

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Posted by hiball1 on 04-02-2012 05:32 PM:

There's way to much EYE CANDY! People are breeding what looks good on paper,and charging outrageous prices for newborn pups. I see it worst of all in the walker breed than any other! Imo, you have got a few big time walker breeders that are hurting the breed more than helping it! I've hunted walkers for going on 12 years and have had a couple of pretty good ones,but I've owned my last one! JMO..............no offence given,and none taken! Have a good day!

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Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 04-02-2012 05:49 PM:

Quit registering them

Let's just cross breed and the pups away, lol, that will make everyone happy.

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