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-- papers do not make the dog agree or disagree (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=330635)

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Originally posted by coondawg_hunter
hey bring your bestest, 1 dog or 2? male or female? mine have papers, but not the point! let's see what your hound has, what can it do? you have a grade female, let's run her with little ann! little ann don't play she is straight up knocked down rock and roll party track and tree the coon and kill it! bottom line!

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hey treberta, i just want to hunt with ya, i'll be making that trip out there in april, got another fella wants to hunt as well! he is in north western ohio, i am sure we would have a great time, and become good friends! heading south after that to hunt with many more! hunting tonight with jeff eaves and his english hounds in ny, tomorrow night with ivan and his bnt hound in pa!

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Let me know when in April. Be glad to go out with you

Mr. Treberta

Sir, the statement you made about a dog that isn't Grand must have something to hide or excuses is very ignorant,pleasure hunters are very competetive and a great number of them will only bred coondog to coondog.We know what a coondog is and don't need a title to prove it,when it is tme to bred we reffer to the owners name rather than the dog,because we know that Joe has a good dog,and his abilities,traits, and demeanerwill only enhance our future dogs,the papers that acompany these dogs are only papers and make for very little conversation when Joe's dog has one treed.Make no mistake true houndsmen need no titles,rules,scorecard, or judge to tell them what a real coondog is.

I would love to see someone say papers(genetics) dont matter that has personally raised and trained or hunted with every dog on a three gen pedigree of the dog they have treeing coon right now.

Titles are not genetic, alot of people think they are.

If anyone has witnessed or operated a succesful breeding program, i'm pretty confident most will tell you there are quite a few traits(hunting qualities) you cannot train into a dog.

I stand by and firmly believe 80% genetics 20% training/handling. Thats what makes or breaks a dog. The 80% genetics CAN be the problem even with 20% good training, or the other way around.

SS, what i'm saying is even if you don't like the hunt why not let soemone handle that good coon dog and make it grand. You have nothing to loose but alot to gain.

Make sense now?

I know there are hundreds of great dogs out there that will never be entered in a nite hunt but don't expect anyone to believe that a 'PR' dog is a coon dog unless they have witnessed it with there own two eyes. A 6 week old puppy is a 'PR' dog. Let that good dog prove itself.

Re: Mr. Treberta

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Originally posted by ssgied
Make no mistake true houndsmen need no titles,rules,scorecard, or judge to tell them what a real coondog is.

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quote:

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Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
I would love to see someone say papers(genetics) dont matter that has personally raised and trained or hunted with every dog on a three gen pedigree of the dog they have treeing coon right now.

Titles are not genetic, alot of people think they are.

If anyone has witnessed or operated a succesful breeding program, i'm pretty confident most will tell you there are quite a few traits(hunting qualities) you cannot train into a dog.

I stand by and firmly believe 80% genetics 20% training/handling. Thats what makes or breaks a dog. The 80% genetics CAN be the problem even with 20% good training, or the other way around.

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Papers are important, but they do not tree game. I liked the comment about 80% genetics 20% training,I believe that to be true. Something else to think about....... Most of what we hunt today can be traced to an old time breeder/hunter who only bred the very best to the very best,anything less was a cull. I'm talking about men like Ben Lilly,Clell and Dale Lee, Del Cameron, Von Plott,Elbert Vaughn, the list could go on and on.Most could have cared less about fancy titles,they only cared about producing dogs that performed exactly to their own standards. Only in the last 30 or so yrs have we become obsessed with titles. I read Mr. Guy Ormiston's column every month, he seems to hit the nail on the head in my opinion....

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North Country Plotts

people can say what they want about its easy as heck to make a dog GRNITE these days,,, .........well maybe in your neck of the woods,, but if you go to a local hunt in northern indiana you can expect there to be 20 dogs or more and most of them are Nitech.

SO if a dog makes grand here,, its got to be a coondog.



As far as papers go, , dont matter what they look like, i mean yeah, its really nice to have them titled up and out of good blood and what not., but if its a coondog, thats all that matters.

as far as raising this "good blood" its not for me, i doubt after this litter i will have another litter of pups again, i'm the only one that wanted one and can hardly give them away.......................................LIKE a good friend told me at our club meeting monday night, you have to have "GROUPIES" to sell pups off your stock.

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disagree

ive know somepr dog that can out tree a nc or on the a $ 4000 dog lol

titles

Some dogs earn them, some handlers earn them, 20 years ago there would be 20 cast at most hunts and not 20 dogs...the scores were more realistic. Look how many people getting busted for falsifying scorecards. Less hunters at the hunts and more falsifying....you now have feeder bucket champions too. Don't get me wrong...I think genetics play a big part in a good coon dog but the handler/trainer does too. C,mon...do you really think some of these champions are really scoring 14-1500 pts...if you hunt ...then you know how hard that would be. Do the math. A man made champion might not have good genetics....such as slick treeing, me too dogs etc.

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CH HARDTIME HILLBILLY RODEO
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I did notice that the final four this year had a hunt titled sire, but not one had a hunt titled dam. I dont go to many hunts, do enjoy one once in awhile, went to 7 last year and went from nothn to a win towards grand, but if hunts were discontinued tommorow, Id still have a hound. I say that pedigrees are a way to look at traits and it gives you an idea of what to expect, but only if you look at the big pic. I see alot of posts that have a dog for sale and say its so and so bred. I look at the pedigree and that dog is in the 3rd gen one time. To many who dont know anything about ped. they jump on these thinkn that it the next world champ. People need to be open minded and look at the whole pic. If you know where there is a pr male or female, who you have hunted with and they are owned by a guy who wont put them in any hunts, but the dog is a coondog, and is strong where your dog is weak and the cross looks like it would work on past experiences, then I feel you are a fool if you dont get what you need because of a piece of paper. Fact of the matter is probably less than 10 percent of the coonhounds born will ever have the chance to see a hunt.

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Just remember"light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear to be bright untill you hear them speak."

There has always been and always will be contraversy over dogs with papers vs. dogs without papers. just because a dog has papers doesnt make it a coondog, and just because a dog doesnt have papers doesnt make it worthless. its all in the dog. if the dog has the heart, the want to and the giddy up and go to run and tree a coon and stick with it, its worth being called a coonhound. as cliche'd as it is, iv never seen a piece of paper sittin at the bottom of a tree barkin up at a coon. i think that everyone has that one breed that they love, me, im a plott girl, but if i come across a dog that will run and tree a coon, il put a little time and effort into the hound. but really, i think all people are really arguing over is color. when it comes down to it, dogs are just dogs. but like people, they like/are intrested in different things. and you have to remember one thing when you get a big head about your dog cuz of its papers or puff out your chest because it won a hunt that night is a dog is only as good as its last hunt.

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I don't believe that papers make the hound. I have had some hounds that have outstanding bloodlines and really just weren't that great of hounds, and I have had a few that didn't have papers and they made the best tree hounds. I think it depends on when the dog is started, who trains the pup, and how much he is hunted, that in my opinion is what makes a good coonhound.

When you say outstanding bloodlines, do you mean you hunted with both parents and all grandparents, or did you mean, it was outstanding because lots of titles and a couple advertised stud dogs up pretty close?

Scenerio

You can buy one pup. One has a set of papers with well know ancestors (or just know for that matter), the other pup has no papers. I know what one I'd take a chance on. Papers sure the heck dont hurt.

The hunters who say papers dont make coondogs, own dogs that dont have a good set of papers.

lmao

All my dogs have outstanding papers...not all champions but proven traits. Any of the guys that have hunted ALOT probably knows where a grade dog is that is flat tuff but they are usually kept a secret. I have a friend that has 2 mutts that make the best squirell dogs that I have ever seen...I have had papered champions too. Every time their bred...they through OUTSTANDING dogs and if you don't believe it... grab your dog and don't forget it's papers because I don't want to hear the excuses....and come on.

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CH HARDTIME HILLBILLY RODEO
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Papers are good if your gonna sell it....until I see them papers put it up a tree I'll hunt any hound that'll get the job done.

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Nick

Had an old timer tell me to lay the papers on the ground, right beside the dog, turn loose and see whats under the tree when you get there. Made a lot of sense to me. JMO

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Papers or Not.

Lets all remember what papers are : "A WRITTEN RECORD OF ANCESTRY PROVIDED BY A REGISTRY ORGANIZATION." That's all papers are, nothing less, nothing more.

Shoot, if I look at my birth certificate, it only lists my father and mother (and it doesn't even list their degrees). I DO NOT HAVE A REGISTRY PROVIDED 3-GENERATION PEDIGREE, but I do know who they all are/were.

If I had a written 3-Generation Pedigree provided by a registry organization, would that make me any different or any better/worse?

Some people have degrees of varying levels, some do not (Bill Gates did not graduate from college---but not due to any lack of ability). Situations, opportunity, money, and desires often come into play.

quote:

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Originally posted by Countryboy_1994
Papers are good if your gonna sell it....until I see them papers put it up a tree I'll hunt any hound that'll get the job done.

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Agree----do not make a dog!!!!!!!!!!!

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Johnny Rowe

I think some of yall missed the point. I dont think the point was about titled vs. non-titled dogs, it was more about dogs with PAPERS (a pedigree) period! An untitled dog still has papers! Its those coffee shop coonhunters that have a walker/bluetick/black and tan/english/plott/beagle that like to sit around talking about how good their dog is and how bad they would beat a dog with PAPERS.

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i agree papers dont make a coondog its the guy who owns the dog

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