UKC Forums - Attn. Allen G. and Todd K.

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Attn. Allen G. and Todd K. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=271508)

Posted by michael widdup on 04-21-2009 05:38 AM:

rules

where do you get a rule book?thanks mike

Posted by Bullet on 04-21-2009 11:32 AM:

It seems as though everyone is responding to this except for the individuals in the thread title. I would really like some input on this from Allen or Todd. Is there anything that we can do to make sure this doesn't happen on a regular basis? All of the input on here is great but I still don't see a solution to the issue. If we as judges give a little speach about making sure all electronic locating devices are off when we start the cast then who is going to enforce this while the cast is in the woods and the spectators are sitting at the truck? Those of you who do not see an advantage to using a locating device during time in need to look a little deeper.

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Posted by Bullet on 04-21-2009 03:15 PM:

btt

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 04-21-2009 06:50 PM:

Bullet, my apologies for the late response. I was out of the office since last Wednsday.

Rule 20 is very specific in what the consequences are for "any" individual caught using a locating device during hunting time. This means a handler, spectator or otherwise. Simply put; it's a barring offense should anyone get caught using a locating device during hunting time.

Can an individual (spectator) look at the mapping system of a GPS System that is turned at the truck during hunting time? Heck no. That would be considered "using".

Posted by jda on 04-21-2009 07:21 PM:

Re: rules

quote:
Originally posted by michael widdup
where do you get a rule book?thanks mike

Click the link in the top right hand corner for UKC store.
You can order a rulebook for $5.

or if you prefer you can download & print it here:

http://www.ukcdogs.com/res/pdf/2009CBRulebook.pdf

Posted by Bullet on 04-21-2009 09:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Bullet, my apologies for the late response. I was out of the office since last Wednsday.

Rule 20 is very specific in what the consequences are for "any" individual caught using a locating device during hunting time. This means a handler, spectator or otherwise. Simply put; it's a barring offense should anyone get caught using a locating device during hunting time.

Can an individual (spectator) look at the mapping system of a GPS System that is turned at the truck during hunting time? Heck no. That would be considered "using".

I know what the rule states but my question is how do we govern a situation like this? All cast members are in the woods. You can't appoint one of the spectators as a monitor since they don't have any authority in the cast. You can't really scratch or bar someone because one spectator said another spectator did something wrong. Is there a possibility that there could be a rule implemented that would require the spectators to remain with the cast? I see some real problems arising here if something is not implemented to govern this type of situation.

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Orebank Creek Kennels
Know Jesus.....Know Peace
No Jesus.....No Peace

Posted by jda on 04-21-2009 10:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bullet
I know what the rule states but my question is how do we govern a situation like this? All cast members are in the woods. You can't appoint one of the spectators as a monitor since they don't have any authority in the cast. You can't really scratch or bar someone because one spectator said another spectator did something wrong. Is there a possibility that there could be a rule implemented that would require the spectators to remain with the cast? I see some real problems arising here if something is not implemented to govern this type of situation.

good greif you ever heard of the honor system..thats the only way its going to work...or get caught

Posted by Bullet on 04-21-2009 11:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jda
good greif you ever heard of the honor system..thats the only way its going to work...or get caught

Yes I have. It is all done by the honor system for the most part. But when folks don't think the rules apply to them what good is an honor system? That is why we don't just send dogs and handlers out on a 1 dog cast without a non-hunting judge. Those folks on here that are not taking this post seriously evidently haven't hunted in very many hunts or maybe they are some of the ones that don't want to see rules enforced for a reason that may hamper them from winning.

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Posted by jda on 04-21-2009 11:33 PM:

every rule could be picked apart like you are doing...

Posted by JefferyAntes on 04-21-2009 11:51 PM:

I got a solution Delete the rule it doesn't make any sense!! It sure isn't worth enough to get all worked up over, IMO, Junk Runners, Mean dogs, and yes even Babblers, Now theres some big hitters(Right MIKEO )

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-22-2009 12:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bullet
Yes I have. It is all done by the honor system for the most part. But when folks don't think the rules apply to them what good is an honor system? That is why we don't just send dogs and handlers out on a 1 dog cast without a non-hunting judge. Those folks on here that are not taking this post seriously evidently haven't hunted in very many hunts or maybe they are some of the ones that don't want to see rules enforced for a reason that may hamper them from winning.

Are you trying to tell us this happens on alot of casts you hunt on?

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Posted by JefferyAntes on 04-22-2009 02:00 AM:

Bullet please tell me how it would help me, It wouldn't make a dog faster or any better,Yes I agree that if its a rule its a rule bottm line but how about choosing you battles. how did it help the guy beat you, or is it he did something but plain beat you.

Posted by jculler8 on 04-22-2009 05:20 AM:

Prime example:

Cutting in the middle of fields ALL night. 1 dog in the cast has not shut its mouth the ENTIRE night. Taking 100 strike all night. CANNOT prove there is no track evident because the dog is dog tracking and is just falling in behind the other dogs' HONEST strike.

Its impossible to minus the dog, because by the time the minute is up, the dogs are already in the woods and the babbler is immediately struck. A dog that does not shut its mouth the entire night in an area with DECENT coon is literally impossible to get 100 strike on.

Mix in a me tooer and that idiot is right in the mix of things.

Maybe move the minute rule up to 15 or even 30 seconds?

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Posted by jawscardodger on 04-22-2009 03:43 PM:

I asked this question before check out this thread.

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...threadid=258219

Posted by Bullet on 04-22-2009 05:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JefferyAntes
Bullet please tell me how it would help me, It wouldn't make a dog faster or any better,Yes I agree that if its a rule its a rule bottm line but how about choosing you battles. how did it help the guy beat you, or is it he did something but plain beat you.

Like I said earlier in this thread the guy withdrew he did not win. He withdrew on his own. No one even confronted him about the rule violation. How would it help you ask. There are a number of ways. If the dogs get deep and you don't know which direction to listen then that guy could get a suttle hint from the spectator which way to listen. If time out is called because all dogs are out of hearing in different directions then the handler with a spectator using a locating device already has his dog pinpointed before the other handlers even get started. This might be the difference between making it back with your dog within the hour or not. I could name some more but I think 2 is enough.

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Orebank Creek Kennels
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Posted by Bullet on 04-22-2009 05:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Are you trying to tell us this happens on alot of casts you hunt on?

You need to read the entire thread. I said in an earlier post on this thread that this is the first time that I know of that this has happened.

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Orebank Creek Kennels
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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-22-2009 07:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bullet
Those folks on here that are not taking this post seriously evidently haven't hunted in very many hunts or maybe they are some of the ones that don't want to see rules enforced for a reason that may hamper them from winning.

But then you wrote this! Seems like your saying it happens in alot of hunts to me.

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Posted by Bullet on 04-22-2009 08:22 PM:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bullet
Those folks on here that are not taking this post seriously evidently haven't hunted in very many hunts or maybe they are some of the ones that don't want to see rules enforced for a reason that may hamper them from winning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
But then you wrote this! Seems like your saying it happens in alot of hunts to me.

It was written because folks don't seem to understand why this is against the rules. The rule serves a purpose and the more hunts you've hunted in the more you would understand why it should be against the rules.

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Orebank Creek Kennels
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Posted by Bullet on 04-23-2009 01:17 AM:

btt

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-23-2009 02:30 AM:

You would not have a leg to stand on even if you did file a complaint.Like you said.Its one spectator against another..Post a poll and see how many on here want to do away with spectators or make them walk with casts.I dont see this being a big problem and I've hunted a good many hunts.It dont bother me.I'm more worried about my dog putting a whipping on the other dogs.Aint no way somebody looking at a garmin is going to change that.

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Posted by Bullet on 04-23-2009 10:02 AM:

So I guess if one rule is OK to overlook then just overlook another then another then another. Pretty soon we are just totally ignoring the rules and making titles on dogs that are worthless.

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Orebank Creek Kennels
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Posted by JefferyAntes on 04-23-2009 10:19 PM:

I don't think anyone here is saying to ignore it but having a hissy over this it isn't worth it, Bring it up next time it happens in the field and tell the others , Please do not use you tracking systems unless in a time out and you need too, Every person that I have hunted with would respect that, And not use them, And just mention it to the Judge, and if still happens, file a formal complaint, I myself would never say a word, I don't even own a tracking system, don't need one,

Posted by MikeO on 04-23-2009 10:39 PM:

your right a rule is the law, no doubt its there for a reason. there are so many better more efficient ways for people to cheat, that tracker thing is WAY down the list that im concerned about. actually people using trackers to cheat isn't even on my list.

but it is a rule, so if im judging i will enforce it.

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Posted by Mutt on 04-24-2009 12:44 AM:

We now know why the numbers at the hunts are so low. The tracker at the truck, in no way, gave the guide an unfair advantage. If people worried more on getting their hounds ready for a hunt instead of figuring out ways to scratch people the numbers in the hunts will go up.

Posted by MikeO on 04-24-2009 01:28 AM:

I don't really know, but i can say there are fewer coonhunters in my area than there was 10 or 15 years ago. personally i can see what turns people away from comp hunts. the win at any cost attitude is ugly and takes alot of fun out of nite hunts.

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