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mistakes trainers make..........not hunting enough!

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Re: training

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry Jones
Guys this is a great thread.. I have coonhunted for almost 40 years and still have lots to learn. I have trained lots of pups over the years and some made good dogs and some didnt.. Anyway i agree with about everthing said here to some degree and of course we all have our own views of how we think it should be done but i am always willing to listen to new or old ideas about training a young dog.. I dont have any insight to add but i do have a question .. I have a 10 month old pup that i really have high hopes for. She has started to babble some when cut loose and i dont know whether i should bump her with the collar or just wait and see if she grows out of it .. any suggestions? thanks

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quote:

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Originally posted by nate m
if your willing to put the time in you can teach your dog to stay at the tree. I know theres lots of things that come with age but if your persistent. I believe most trainers don't put there time in and these excuses are just that.

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I HAVE A QUESTION SOMEONE SAID YOU COULD TEACH YOUR DOG TO STAY AT A TREE WHY IF IT IS NOT NATURAL .THEN SOME ONE WILL USE THIS DOG FOR BREEDING STOCK THEN YOU REALLY GET YOURSELVE INTO A MESS BECAUSE BEFORE LONG YOU HAVE A BUNCH OF DOGS THAT WONT TREE CULL THE JUNK BREED THE BEST . BUT NOW I AM STARTING A NEW SUBJECT SORRY.

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There are very few that do it all great right out of the chute. Walkers from a couple decades ago didn't have the tree instinct that a lot have now but they sure could drive a track like none other. I think too much attention has been given to breeding the tree into them. I think most lines have too much tree instinct and not enough tracking ability for my taste. You can teach a hound to stay treed with time, age and patience. You can NOT teach tracking ability. I'll take a track driver over a hard tree dog any day. A few are blessed with both but very few. JMO.

JMO

Tritronics is not a TOOL.....Its a instrument ..... A tool a fool can use... instrument takes wisdom to use....again JMO

If a dog is not staying at the tree because of desire, independence to trust it's own nose and brain, and the instinct to finish the job, it is staying for the wrong reason.

You can teach a dog not to leave the tree, but you can't teach desire, and determination. I'm talking about enough desire to make him/her stay because they know they're right, and their quarry is up, and they're not leaving until the job is finished or they're led / called away.

I have never seen a finished coondog at 1 yr. old. I am not excited by stories of finished dogs before they are old enough to breed, but I am excited by pups, at a young age, that instinctively dig their toe nails into the bark and tree hard because of a natural born desire that takes over their senses, and tells them to do it.

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Jhn. 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease."

I had a male Bluetick growing up that was a heck of a track dog, but would not stay at the tree period. He could track in a dry and dusty fiels and get treed with a few tree barks then leave. He was all I had, so he would track and we would find the coon, shoot it out every time. We were kids. He would always come back to the tree once we shot it out. Well this went on for 4 yrs and when he turned 5 yrs old, you could not pull him off a tree once he treed. He finally was the real deal. Back then then there was a lot of comp hunters that wanted to buy him. I always said no. Well some one ended up stealing him in the end. I just think if a dog with the right tools lacks some thing, over time and hunting will change it. Patience is the key.

quote:

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Originally posted by Craig Edwards
Some very good post. My grandmother always said, " An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of Cure."

Proper training is necessary; however, training cannot take the place of good genes. This is done in the breeding pen. If it's not born to be a coon dog it won't ever be a coon dog, but bad training can create bad habits in a pup with good genes.

I've heard people ask questions like:

How can I teach my dog to split tree?
How can I teach my dog to cold trail?
How can I teach my dog to drift a track?
How can I teach my dog to go hunting?
How can I teach my dog to stay at the tree?

The answers to these questions is, You Can't.
These are traits that must be bred into a dog. I know someone is thinking, " I can make a dog hunt." You may make him leave you, but you can't make him hunt.

I believe a good pup, with all these traits, can be ruined by a poor trainer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
im not saying your wrong, your not.
i just think you are makeing life much more difficult than it needs to be if you are "teaching" dogs to stay at a tree, and those that need to be trained to stay should be eliminated from the gene pool.jmo

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quote:

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Originally posted by Craig Edwards
Some very good post. My grandmother always said, " An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of Cure."

Proper training is necessary; however, training cannot take the place of good genes. This is done in the breeding pen. If it's not born to be a coon dog it won't ever be a coon dog, but bad training can create bad habits in a pup with good genes.

I've heard people ask questions like:

How can I teach my dog to split tree?
How can I teach my dog to cold trail?
How can I teach my dog to drift a track?
How can I teach my dog to go hunting?
How can I teach my dog to stay at the tree?

The answers to these questions is, You Can't.
These are traits that must be bred into a dog. I know someone is thinking, " I can make a dog hunt." You may make him leave you, but you can't make him hunt.

I believe a good pup, with all these traits, can be ruined by a poor trainer.

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Mnman, I too hunted one like that and when he finally decided to be a tree dog he was tough to beat. Problem was he couldn't reproduce his likeness cause it was learned behavior. It's a lot easier to start with it in their genes and just hunt em and watch it come out. Example: I have a young dog out of John Carroll's jewel female who went from nothing to treeing his own in two weeks. It's sooooo much easier to start with good blood.

elvis I do agree with you that treeing should come naturel but its not a reason to cull in my eyes.I have two now that needed help on the tree part .they were both more track minded and now they tree like champs. now them natural tree dogs just havent ben as acurate.now them tree grabing idiots are the ones that need to be thined out.

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Trying to get the whole package all at once. There are gonna be good and bad nights, you just have to keep going and fix one problem at a time. If the dog has what it takes the process shouldn't be torture for you.

I think the BIGGEST mistake trainers make is wasting too much time on dogs that just don't have it or have what is going to make them happy. You have to know what you are looking for in order to find it. In order to know you have to hunt with a bunch of dogs and know what you like. If all you do is start coonhunting by buying a pup and starting training you really have no idea what to expect of the dog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Briar
Trying to get the whole package all at once. There are gonna be good and bad nights, you just have to keep going and fix one problem at a time. If the dog has what it takes the process shouldn't be torture for you.

I think the BIGGEST mistake trainers make is wasting too much time on dogs that just don't have it or have what is going to make them happy. You have to know what you are looking for in order to find it. In order to know you have to hunt with a bunch of dogs and know what you like. If all you do is start coonhunting by buying a pup and starting training you really have no idea what to expect of the dog.

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Jhn. 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease."

Praise on the tree

Bandithunter, Why wont you praise a dog on the tree? Thats total opposite what I was taught. I notice when I praise a pup or a hound that is lacking a little on the tree the more I praise the more they go at treeing. They also seem to stay treed tighter on the the tree.


Just wondering I am always up for new methods.

quote:

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Originally posted by Craig Edwards had spent more money on junk than I would have for a good dog to start with.

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Treedog/Boone, I won't keep a dog who won't stay till I get there. Even a young dog when he's starting out should have the good sense to stay put till I get there. He's got the coon, not me, and it's my job to get there in a timely manner. The next young dog you start you pull him off the tree, walk a little ways, stop and pet him and tell him what a good boy he is, and when he tries to go back to the tree the lesson is over. Works the same as pulling back a young dog from a scrap with a coon while the other dogs get a mouthful of fur, only intensifies without undue agression at the tree. Way too many guys overdue it at the tree and end up with a growly dog. Also makes it easier to get them to follow you out without a leash when they get a little older.

everyone talks about misusing shocker, but dont say how to do it right. i have a 10 month old pup that will flat burn a deer up, what am i suppose to do not shock him off deer and spend the hole night chasing him across the river bottoms??? what do i do. and he has been to a training pen and knows what a coon is and where it goes up. where do i go from here??

Can starting a pup too early hurt them honestly? Im 21 years old and been hunting since i was ten, so im still learning too. Over those ten years or so, my partner has trained a lot of pups of different breeds. He starts hunting them at 2-3 months old always. By six months, he was them treeing alone. Ive seen one dog not make it, but he told me the # 1 key is to tie them back from the tree to see the fight, and hot tracks. Id like to learn all i can from yall.

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put a collar on him, but don't use it..let him wear it till he thinks it is nothing out of the ordinary..you don't want him to associate the shock with the collar..let him wear it for a few weeks before using it..then take him out when the snow is covering the ground good and free cast him just like you would at night..if you watch the deer trails for deer busting out and he is right on them..give him the juice...but make sure he is on deer, because coon will run in the daylight in mid winter..i don't like sticking them right on a hot deer track and shocking them..it can cause head problems and they wont hunt..just free cast them and see if they find a deer on there own..

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Hmmmm, mistakes we make.....How about burning a pup or young dog out? We hear all about these 6,7,8, and 9 month old dogs running and treeing (split treeing, too), basically, burning the woods up. Where are they at 3 years old ??!!!! I think one of the biggest mistakes is putting too much pressure on a young dog (especially, under a year) by placing them in the hunts with every junk running, alligator eating thing around. Knowing when to hunt the hair off them and resting them at the right time and putting them in the hunts when they are ready can be almost scientific. I've seen quite a few very young NtCh with a couple of wins on them blow right up in front of their handlers face. I put a lot in the addage to never put a dog in a hunt until they have seen their first full season. One of the biggest fiasco's I've seen was the PKC Pup Derby.

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Keep it going!!!

I have a 3 and a half month old pup. This will be my first pup training experience. So keep the do's and dont's coming. Im listening to everything you guys have said. I have been doing a lot of yard work with him and its going good. He already knows his name. He will come to me when I call him. He will go back into the kennel when I tell him. He loves to ride around in the truck. This is all great info!!! Keep it coming. Thanks, WES

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all i know is when i hunted 300 nights a year with one dog thats when i was really packin a hound correct them when there wrong and praise them when there right and you'll probably have the best dog in you area

Close mindedness, The biggest thing I seen on here is the sentence " never do so and so or allways do so and so" in my opinion those 2 things show me I never want those people training my dog.
The other big one is I tried that and it don't work.
Well maybe you didn't do it right and maybe you did it perfect but just didn't make THAT dog click but will with another.

Not being able to read a dogs face or body language and tell what it needs. I can't tell that on this thing but in the seminars I tought that was the top problem and only open mindedness and a lot of time with a dog can teach you.

One more is they don't study scent. If you have an idea of what it does, how long it lasts, and were it goes. You have a lot better understanding of what yur dog is doing and how to get it to do what you want it to. You can do a lot of imprenting as a pup to get them in the habbit of working scent closer to how you want them to work it.
Habbits are started early and hard to break.

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