UKC Forums - Hybrid vigor and X-Breeds

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-- Hybrid vigor and X-Breeds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928478205)

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-28-2017 06:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Now these are just my thoughts and I for sure don't really know what I am doing. I change my mind daily or weekly about what to do. So I don't think that anyone else should do what I do. Everyone should have their own plan. And sometimes no plan is a plan.
Be careful what you ask for, you might get it. Why do y'all think that so many walker dog guys want a Redbone? The walkers became dominate in the comp hunts because that is what they bred for. They gave up brains, sense, looks, pleasure to hunt, handling, personality and disposition, accuracy and mouth. They only bred for speed, drive and tree. So be careful if you only want a red colored walker dog you might get one.
But it might be useful to stop and think just why you wanted and loved Redbones to begin with. And what besides just color separated them from walker dogs.

I can't speak for everyone....but I can say I don't want a red colored walker....I want a redbone that can beat walkers most of the time. Walkers have their own set of problems brought on by a few breeders starting in the late 90's. Their problems are not really the same as redbone problems and their strengths are not really the same as redbone strengths. We are in a unique position to learn from their mistakes and not make them ourselves as we go forward. We do need to strengthen many of the same traits that are dominant in big winning walkers in our redbones...but we can do without some of the collateral damage they caused themselves along the way. Every redbone breeder should sit down and list out the top five best things they have ever seen out of the best competition dogs they have ever seen perform...then break it down into what traits were responsible for those things. Now compare those things with what you have seen from the average redbone in competition. Not the very best one hit wonder dog...just the average redbone who has done some winning in competition.
Granted, you are comparing best of the best to the average of the redbone breed at this point...but that will give you the yardstick to measure against. If the best of the best you have ever seen go in competition are redbones...then you probably haven't been in many top level hunts and need to get out more. There are good redbones out there...a few are really good...but they are very rare as you know if you hunt much at that level.
But once you compare those top five dogs you ever seen perform...against the average redbone you are going to see in competition ....the weaknesses in terms of competition traits will become clear.
Then list out those glaring weaknesses you have identified in the average redbone and compare those with the average walker or English dog you see in competition. You will see a difference.
This is why I say there is more than a color difference between breeds.
The average walker has more drive than the average redbone.
The average walker has more volume than the average redbone.
There are several other differences but you get the point.
Now....you will also see a few things where redbones will rank higher...such as accuracy and maybe independence and lay up ability.
If everyone would list this all out and be honest with themselves...what you end up with is a road map of where we have been as a breed, where we are now and where we need go from here.
Not every trait we see in walkers helps them win in competition and not every trait we see in redbones holds us back from winning. But there is no doubt that more walkers have more of the traits needed to win in competition than the average redbone does....that's a fact we need to admit...and accept...and correct!
It's getting the right combination that is specific and targeted to win in competition that is the key.
A lot of walkers win by being automatic strike dogs and will run anything and fall off on a coon and beat you because your straight redbone won't run that junk. I don't want a redbone like that...I want something better.
You don't have to breed for redbones that do the same to beat that walker...ask yourself what can a dog do to beat a dog like that?
Well, a straight accurate dog with more drive than most redbones who isn't afraid to get by itself can tree two coons while that walker is running trash and beat that walker dog. There are always ways to counter another's strengths....without copying them....or stealing from them.
Too many redbone people seem to be giving up and saying..."if you can't beat em join em"
Well you will always be behind the curve doing that...playing follow the leader. We need to take what we know we have, be honest about what we don't have, and educate ourselves and find the solutions to the question of how do we breed redbones that have all or most of what we need to beat the best out there WITHOUT TURNING OUR BREED INTO A RED VERSION OF THEIR BREED!
I believe it's possible to create a redbone someday that has what we want and do it in a predictable and repeatable way. It's not going to happen tomorrow...it's not going to happen with one lucky, (or we'll planned) cross. It will come over several years when more and more people start getting on the same page and work together towards the same common goal.

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
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as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by Larry D Walker on 03-28-2017 08:48 PM:

its more than color....50 yrs exp..in many breeds

Take bird dogs for instance....the english pointer is a dog that will cover a lot of ground fast and are hunted off horse back alot of times..you cut a english pointer loose in a 200 acre field and stand in one spot while he hunts the entire field out.

The german short hair is a foot dog...shoot to retrieve kinda dog that will hunt with you close at a slower kinda of pace..

But both are bird dogs...and i think that hounds are separated in there traits just like bird dogs...

As far as x bred one hit wonder not reproducing i cant totally agree with that either..i have the proof in my kennel..that they will reproduce and better than themself...i have a 15 month old pup out of freak that may be my best yet...and he is not the only one from the litter thats doin outstanding...the entire litter is getting it done...

I show what i have learned to anyone that wants to see it..anytime..just bring your boots an a lite..

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-28-2017 10:23 PM:

When I say reproduce...I'm talking about reproducing a high percentage of litters with a high percentage of dogs as good or better than the parents.
Any dog has the capability to reproduce a good dog here and there...even x breds. I have not said they won't reproduce well...I said my feeling is they will reproduce like most dogs from complete out crosses reproduce...which is a good one here and there and not 3-5 good ones per litter like you are more apt to get from a tight line bred cross of two big winning, proven reproducers.
X breds are new...at least the honest above the table ones are so we need time to look at the evidence and draw accurate conclusions from the facts. I am undecided on how the results will be as far as their ability to reproduce what I think they need to...in order to be successful as reproducers...and that's high percentage litters. I am hopeful we may see that...but I'm doubtful because in the past when I have studied redbones who were long rumored to have been cross breeds ...you know the ones who certain people always hold up as shining examples of the success of crossbreeding....well, they don't have any better reproducing records than full blooded redbones...in fact by % most are way worse...
And some had plenty of pups for plenty of chances to prove that cross breeding produces better dogs or better reproducers...but over time the facts didn't prove that to be true. We all know there are at least 5 well known studs over the past 25-30 years that were widely rumored to be half walker or another breed...dogs that produced more pups than most dogs on the current reproducer list showing two or three times the number of titled dogs these "cross breds" produced in their entire lifetime...
So that's why I'm skeptical of the ability for crossbreeding to reproduce as well or better than full blooded redbones. I'm not saying they won't produce some good dogs...I just don't think it will be in as high a percentage as full blooded dogs who have been line bred for consistency.
I do think there is a good chance that some of these cross breeds will make great dogs...probably be some big winners among them...but without the ability to reproduce that same thing in a high percentage of their offspring...that seems like a step backwards in a way.
High percentage litters of above average dogs is what I am breeding for....not the one out of 500 or 1000 phenom type dog. Those are not reliably repeatable and seldom ever will reproduce their likeness in many, if any of their offspring...from what I have seen and studied over the years.
It would be great if they did...but it just almost never happens. One of the biggest things I see people doing in this sport is chasing these Shooting stars trying to capture and reproduce that ability they see in these one in a thousand dogs where everything in their dna just happened to line up just right in that one dog and that combination made him extraordinary and talented.
People have done that for years and called it breeding winner to winner ....but if you do it using dogs that were anomalies with few proven winners or reproducers behind them...then your probably going to get more dogs just like most of their ancestors and not like the phenom parent. I have yet to see a bonified super star phenom competition winner in the redbone breed who could reproduce the same talent end ability in their pups. But I am always on the lookout for the first one....and when I am convinced there actually is one...I will breed to it of buy a pup from it.
But until then...I will watch all these efforts by others and keep an open mind while continuing to build my breeding program on the premise that high percentage litters are currently the best way to improve the redbone breed.

Posted by Sawblade on 03-29-2017 01:48 AM:

traits

list the traits you want in a top dog in order be able to win against any other hound with even the slightest less powerful trait. Here are mine.
1. Enough drive to find whatever coon in the area is moving and a desire to compete with other dogs to be in the front of the race.
2.honest fast strike dog that opens the second the dog smells coon and stays open while pushing a track.
3.tracking ability and brains that gives a dog the ability to drift a track and or line out even an old track pushing it to either catch or tree it.
4. loud natural locate when game is found.
5.quick accurate tree dog that stays treed and will back away if things get ruff but stay barking. will not leave a tree until handled.
6. Disposition that is eager to please the owner and not ill or means towards other dogs. Never so proud they won't check when another dog opens when they have nothing going themselves.
7. true hound mouth loud enough to hear while running with other loud dogs.
8.whatever color you like.
The only trait missing is the color

Do these trait describe any particular breed. I don't believe so . They describe a top hound of any breed. These traits are in all coonhound breeds. If I had a redbone with these traits, it would not be a red walker it would be a redbone. If I have a solid red dog with these traits what breed would it be.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-29-2017 02:01 AM:

All of those traits are found in every breed....but it's how dominant they are and in what combination they align that makes all the difference. There are no perfect dogs in any breed...but the best competition dogs seem to share certain traits. Is that just by coincidence, or like minded breeding methods?
How do we use this information to breed better competition redbones?

Posted by Sawblade on 03-29-2017 12:47 PM:

Some say that if we had a redbone like this it would just be a Red Walker . I say it would be a very good redbone. If I raise an all red dog that has all these traits ,what is it?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-29-2017 02:34 PM:

Kelly, those traits describe an excellant Redbone. But they don't describe the top winning walker dogs of today. And that is what most of these guys are breeding for. If the traits that you described are what you are breeding for then you had better stick to Redbones. You will have a true hound that you can be proud of but you won't consistently beat those big money winning walkers in comp hunts.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 03-29-2017 06:12 PM:

COONDOGS

Not sure who you refer to as we...but i can promise you that i would not own a babbler..kennel pacer or slick treeing hound.. And you will never hear a hound on my place make a sound..and if you think that this is what the walker dogs are today then you have not been to many hunts....we win our share of hunts but we also get beat and most generally its a walker dog that beats us..but i can assure you we are not getting beat by a babbling slick treeing idiot ever...i think maybe alot of folks worry to much about another mans dogs or what someone else is breeding or hunting more than what they have in their kennel...here what i recommend..they are hunts 6 nites a week just about year around...put your money where your mouth is and go see if you can beat the comp hounds of today instead of talking crap about what others are doin...proove it to yourself and others...spend a lil money...show the world what you have..

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Adam Wingler on 03-29-2017 06:19 PM:

Hey Larry, I may have confused as to who you are referring to, but the quoted paragraphs Red Scorpion is using came from a well known walker fella who has and is winning with dogs in different parts of the country.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-29-2017 06:22 PM:

I have tried and I can't beat them.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 03-29-2017 06:27 PM:

ya i was refering to red scorpion

Babbling slick tree ers dont win many when the leaves are off..

Some of the things quoted by the other fellow i do agree with..to an extent....but even then its only in certain lines of dogs in the walker breed and not the breed as a whole....and the majority of the dogs that we draw in general are not slick treeing babbling idiots...especially when the leaves are off...

It takes a coon treeing honest coondog to consistantly win hunts..babbling slick treeing dogs might get lucky sometimes and win one once in a while....but thats not the type of dog thats winning consistantly and leading the races...atleast not what i have seen..

But its simply...6 nites a week there are hunts..put your money down and enter them world beaters....see for yourself

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Adam Wingler on 03-29-2017 06:32 PM:

Re: ya i was refering to red scorpion

quote:
Originally posted by Larry D Walker
Babbling slick tree ers dont win many when the leaves are off..

Yep, and if enough trees are made they can't win much with the leaves on, IF we can count on handler honesty.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 03-29-2017 06:38 PM:

Re: Re: ya i was refering to red scorpion

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
Yep, and if enough trees are made they can't win much with the leaves on, IF we can count on handler honesty.

Exactly...one coon seen beats a pile of slick trees....

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Jack Bingham on 03-29-2017 07:17 PM:

From some of the post about x-bred red dogs you can see it's a sensitive subject. Some are dead set against it some aren't. Why does anyone care what the next guy is doing. Do what you want let them do what they want. It ain't like anyone is beating down your door to breed to your stud. I honestly believe that if anyone of us won the World hunt that you would see more off colored dogs wanting to breed to your World champion redbone than other redbones. If whatever your doing works for you and you like it keep it up. If it isn't working try something else. I personally don't care. I do what works for me I don't care what Joe blow down the street is doing.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-29-2017 08:59 PM:

I wish I could competition hunt 6 nights a week....but what little I win I have to do it one night a week...Saturday night.
Because I have been stuck on 2nd shift for years now. That's why you don't see me in pkc races much....hard to accumulate more money hunting only on Saturday than others who are hunting pkc hunts almost every night of the week.
I hit the woods about midnight most nights and hunt till 4 or 5am and try to be ready when Saturday rolls around. When I was young...had plenty of time but no money....now I have money but no time.....retirement is only 6 or 7 years away and when that happens...

Posted by Larry D Walker on 03-29-2017 09:06 PM:

my reply

My reply to your post had nothing to do with the link that you posted from conkeys thread...my reply was in regards to your comments....and i have never said my dogs are better than yours..i dont know you i have never met a red scorpion that i can recall...

What i said has nothing to do with second hand knowledge or what someone else has said...what i said is based on first hand knowledge what i see at the hunts...and i know there are alot of walker dogs that tree live raccoons...thats how they win..not just walkers but all breeds...if they win consistantly they are not doin it by babbling and slick treeing..

If you go to the hunts then you will see for yourself..

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Larry D Walker on 03-29-2017 09:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
I wish I could competition hunt 6 nights a week....but what little I win I have to do it one night a week...Saturday night.
Because I have been stuck on 2nd shift for years now. That's why you don't see me in pkc races much....hard to accumulate more money hunting only on Saturday than others who are hunting pkc hunts almost every night of the week.
I hit the woods about midnight most nights and hunt till 4 or 5am and try to be ready when Saturday rolls around. When I was young...had plenty of time but no money....now I have money but no time.....retirement is only 6 or 7 years away and when that happens...

You should be able to win some at one nite a week lol..

I would think if a person had a winner he or she could figure out a way to give it a chance

If you had one win a week since october when this season began you would be running away with the breed race..

If you had one win a month since this current season started you would be a top contender...so that excuse dont work...

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-29-2017 09:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry D Walker
You should be able to win some at one nite a week lol..

I would think if a person had a winner he or she could figure out a way to give it a chance

If you had one win a week since october when this season began you would be running away with the breed race..

If you had one win a month since this current season started you would be a top contender...so that excuse dont work...

I win some Larry....more than I lose. But I don't get into the pkc races because I cannot compete hunting one night a week compared to guys hunting 6 nights a week in pkc hunts. When I go...I win. I almost always have a dog or have dogs who came from my kennel in those races...in fact the redbone leader right now I raised as a pup. The top overall money winning redbone last year in pkc came from my kennel. The redbone who won PKC Redbone Days last year and was in the top 4 or 5 of the breed was my Mac dog. So you can call it an excuse if you want....but it's a fact that if I didn't have to work 2nd shift in this factory...my dogs would probably win 3 times as much as they do now with me competing only one night a week most weeks. It's Not an excuse...just the way it is for me with my job. I'm not limited on dog power...I'm limited on time....there is a big difference. I hunt some pkc hunts here and there...but probably hunt three times as much in ukc. I also hunt some akc and ACHA and won plenty in all four last year. I like em all and don't go to one over another because it's "easier". For a guy who gets to go mostly only on Saturday nights and almost always handle my own dog...I think you would have a hard time finding many if any in the redbone breed who wins more across all four registries with different redbones year after year than me...
So you can call it an excuse if ya want...I call it just having only one free night a week to compete holds my dogs back from winning more than they do...
And if one win a week since october would have a guy leading the breed race....why aren't you leading the breed race?
You must be busy like me

Posted by Adam Wingler on 03-29-2017 09:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RedScorpion
Just so we are clear.

The comments about slick treers and babblers were Conkey's words not mine. Everything in quotations was said by Mr. Conkey.

I said nothing of the sort.

I don't think he was talking about dogs that win but the state of the Walker breed in general. I wouldn't talk about the Walker breed because I am not knowledgeable in that area. I assume that Mr. Conkey is.

I tried to point that out earlier.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 03-29-2017 09:54 PM:

i hear ya

I have been to 2 hunts this yr lol..

Good luck with them big winners..even if its only one night a week..

Thats more than me..

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Sawblade on 03-29-2017 10:37 PM:

one Night

Richard, I guided Mr Clean at our zones. The traits I listed are my discription of what I seen in him that night. The only trait I added was the disposition . It was hard to judge him that night on that but he never caused any trouble and he stayed out of it also. Clean won the world that year. He is a Walker. Just saying

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