Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Northern Tier
Posts: 200

I have read many posts related to the idea that X-breeding will create hybrid vigor in coonhounds. Many of these posts infer that there is some sort of enhanced performance (they term this increase “hybrid vigor”) resulting from the mating together of two different breeds of coonhounds.

This notion is patently false and goes counter to genetic fact.

The scientific definition of hybrid vigor (heterosis) is the reversal of the loss of vigor that is a result of inbreeding depression. The key here is the “reversal.” When a population is small or inbred, it tends to lose genetic diversity. Inbreeding depression is the loss of fitness due to loss of genetic diversity.

Inbreeding increases homozygosity that results inbreeding depression, with negative effects that we can loosely refer to as "loss of vigor".Heterosis or hybrid vigor is the opposite of inbreeding depression. Inbreeding depression can be recognized by loss of overall fitness, lowering or loss of fertility and reduced competitiveness.

Increased homozygosity results in inbreeding depression in dogs, so the reduction of inbreeding depression that results from increasing heterozygosity is heterosis. It's as simple as that. It is not some sort of super boost to non inbred crosses that some claim.

It even gets more obvious.

A study at UC Davis — one of the first of its kind in terms of breadth — shakes the notion that mixing breeds is a surefire way to help lessen the incidence of disease. Among the 90,000 medical cases reviewed, 27,254 dogs presented with at least one of 24 genetic conditions, the researchers concluded. The cases revealed that mixed-breed dogs are nearly as susceptible as purebred dogs to 13 heritable medical conditions such as hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, mitral valve dysplasia, lymphoma and hip dysplasia.

This study goes against the notion that mixing breeds (of which coonhounds are less genetically diverse) will create some sort of boost to the dog’s health.

Therefore, If you think you are going to get some magical boost by breeding a Walker to a Redbone, it ain’t gonna happen. You are operating under the same genetic framework (as it relates to hybrid vigor) as breeding redbone to redbone.

Reference: http://www.instituteofcaninebiology...n-dogsis-a-myth

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Last edited by RedScorpion on 03-27-2017 at 06:45 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

I see you been reading.
It's all pretty interesting. What it means to me is no matter what we want to call it, trying to breed for better hounds can be done several different ways. Breeding within a current line of the same breed- Hoffmeister to Hoffmeister, using different established lines of the same breed, Yellow River to Hoffmeister, breeding different established lines within the same "coonhound" family but different breeds Walker to Redbone. All can be done with success and all can be used to build a high quality hound. Some require a different designation of breed when it comes to paperwork.
Break it down and we have Canine, Dog, Hounds, Coonhounds, Breeds or "color variation of coonhounds" Example Black and Tan, lines within that color variation, example: Hoffmeister line.
Fun stuff.

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

But sometimes we "learn" misinformation. I don't remember where it came from but I have heard that if you linebreed you will get a litter of pups similar to or just as good as their parents. But if you outcross you might get a pup that is better than his/her parents.
So if you have a real nice female that you like you can linebreed her and get pups just like her. But if you have a female that is just ok then you would need to outcross her and just hope that you would get a pup that was better.
Now I don't know the reasoning behind this theory but I have heard it from several sources.

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Registered: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 406

So what you are saying is that the various coonhound breeds / walker, english, black and tan, redbone, etc are all one breed of dog being coonhounds . And within the coonhound breed are various colors of dogs of which UKC has recognized as individual breeds based on their color…. So what you are saying is in order to make a true outcross, an individual would have to breed to a collie or boxer, something that is not considered a coonhound. And that breeding within the coonhound breed regardless of color would be line breeding and breeding within the color of choice would be inbreeding, i.e. uncle to niece, half brother, or any other mate of the same color. I guess what we would have now would be inbreeding ,based on the severity or how close the lines run… Just some thoughts. Maybe we should look at the thoroughbred horse racing industry where every foal has to be from a live breeding and DNA'd. Average starts in 1960 was 65. Today the average starts are 11. By the way… Every dog owner has the choice of who he wants to breed his gyp to… Also, if you all think your dogs are as pure as you think, you are only fooling yourself. Probably why some breeders are try to get back to the well… Mark Lucas…

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Crazy Luke
… Also, if you all think your dogs are as pure as you think, you are only fooling yourself..
. Mark Lucas…

---

Mark, I have been breeding "my" dogs for 7 generations. Do you really think that I don't know how "pure" they are?

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

In one of John Wick's original books there was a chapter that outlined his work as a breeder of coon hounds in the area of line breeding and inbreeding his walker coonhounds. This was done at a time when ukc was still printing "inbred" on a dogs papers if you got as close as an uncle to niece or nephew to aunt cross...so there was a stigma about it for most breeders. John intentionally inbred some of his walkers for several generations...on purpose and kept detailed records on the results. It's been years since I read those words so I can't quote them exactly but if I remember right he bred littermates together...then littermates from that cross together...then littermates from that cross together.
I'm pretty sure he went at least 3 generations of this before he stopped....maybe more.
What I took away from his detailed accounting of the results was that with each cross...the litters became more and more similar and uniform in their traits and characteristics. By the end, the litters produced all looked very similar, they were similar in size and sounded almost the same. So basically if one in the litter was a bawl mouth on track and chop on tree...every pup in the litter was just like that.
He also said he did not see a higher level of physical deformation or an amplification of physical faults as has long been the main argument against inbreeding.
I gave my books to a couple of young hunters just starting out so I can't go back and give an exact summary of that chapter....but my takeaway from his work in the area and what I have learned myself since I bred my first coonhound 30 years ago was this....
Line breeding creates uniformity and consistency in a line and helps to concentrate the stronger and weaker traits within that line. Outcrossing can add a new trait...but might weaken the overall consistency that had experienced in one or both lines that the parents are from and the way to get back to that consistency is after an outcross...go back to linebreeding to lock in and concentrate that new added trait so it stays with that line in the future.
I've been accused of being line blind by those who don't understand my breeding program... but I Outcross all the time. But when I outcross...I do it using heavy line bred foundation females who I feel have the main attributes from the lines they are from locked in and have proven they can pass those particular traits on in a dominant way to their offspring.
Those traits are things the lines I work with are known for....the most dominant and evident traits that can be seen in a high percentage of every litter....generation after generation. If you first build a foundation like that in your program...then you can use those foundation dogs to Outcross with and try to add a new trait that is strong in another line while not losing the strong traits that have been the bedrock of your line for generations.
I have done a lot of line breeding...some very close but not a brother sister or father daughter cross like Mr. Wick made.... but after reading his research in the area...I wouldn't be afraid to try it if I thought I needed to in order to solidly lock in particular traits while building foundation stock.

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-27-2017 at 06:59 PM

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Registered: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 406

Richard… I don't know what you are thinking… That is a vast expanse that I would rather not traverse...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

You are right. Now I have a question. Is the color red a TRAIT in some coonhounds ?

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crazy Luke
Richard… I don't know what you are thinking… That is a vast expanse that I would rather not traverse...

---

Mark, I usually don't think. I just blurt out the first thing that comes to mind. Surely you have figured that out by now. I guess that it is a good thing that I don't know how to tweet.

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sawblade
You are right. Now I have a question. Is the color red a TRAIT in some coonhounds ?

---

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

So I need to make a brother X sister cross ?
Or father X daughter cross? Or just go buy a dog.
This is interesting stuff.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

My only point is that the traits we all are looking for exist in almost all coonhounds . If we want any certain trait weather it be color or disposition we can breed for it . I believe the dog is a species, the hound is a subspecies of the common domesticated dog, the coonhound is a group from that same subspecies of hound. Beagles and Harriers are examples of other subspecies of hounds. Coonhound breeds are separated from each other by color only. The color trait is what breeders used to call identify the offspring by. Even today most breeds of coonhounds are identified by their color. So..when we breed for traits using only coonhounds as our stock we can get those traits form any coonhound. As you pointed out there are some proven ways to concentrate the traits. Color for the most part has been concentrated pretty well over the years because it was easy to see if you got the color you wanted. The other traits that make a dog a great coonhound aren't as easy for some to identify as color. If I'm right about this ,which can be up to debate, but if I'm right, a walker is a redbone is a bluetick etc. except for color.
So If I take a heavy line bred redbone that has concentrated traits and I breed it to a heavy line bred coonhound of another breed with many of the same similar traits but perhaps a little more of one performance trait I wish to enhance . I should end up with the same performance in the pups as I would if I picked two redbones with the same concentration of traits, the only big variable being color.
I don't want to sway anyone from their breeding program, not here to prove anyone wrong and I'm not knocking the Redbone breed that I love . I'm just stating what I think is pretty solid thinking . That being that Xbred coonhounds will produce big winners at about the same percentages as purebreds if the breeder selects dogs with the concentrated traits and uses the same methods as purebred breeders who work on their lines.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 950

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sawblade
My only point is that the traits we all are looking for exist in almost all coonhounds . If we want any certain trait weather it be color or disposition we can breed for it . I believe the dog is a species, the hound is a subspecies of the common domesticated dog, the coonhound is a group from that same subspecies of hound. Beagles and Harriers are examples of other subspecies of hounds. Coonhound breeds are separated from each other by color only. The color trait is what breeders used to call identify the offspring by. Even today most breeds of coonhounds are identified by their color. So..when we breed for traits using only coonhounds as our stock we can get those traits form any coonhound. As you pointed out there are some proven ways to concentrate the traits. Color for the most part has been concentrated pretty well over the years because it was easy to see if you got the color you wanted. The other traits that make a dog a great coonhound aren't as easy for some to identify as color. If I'm right about this ,which can be up to debate, but if I'm right, a walker is a redbone is a bluetick etc. except for color.
So If I take a heavy line bred redbone that has concentrated traits and I breed it to a heavy line bred coonhound of another breed with many of the same similar traits but perhaps a little more of one performance trait I wish to enhance . I should end up with the same performance in the pups as I would if I picked two redbones with the same concentration of traits, the only big variable being color.
I don't want to sway anyone from their breeding program, not here to prove anyone wrong and I'm not knocking the Redbone breed that I love . I'm just stating what I think is pretty solid thinking . That being that Xbred coonhounds will produce big winners at about the same percentages as purebreds if the breeder selects dogs with the concentrated traits and uses the same methods as purebred breeders who work on their lines.

---

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Ok....
So, if color is the only difference between the breeds....why does one breed of a different color completely dominate all competition hunts year in and year out approximately 90+ percent of the time?
I'm talking about the walker breed...
There are clear differences between walkers and redbones...aside from the color aspect.
That's not to say we don't have some of those same traits in the redbone breed...we do...but in smaller and less dominant amounts scattered throughout the whole breed. So why are walkers so dominant in certain traits and abilities....if those same traits and abilities are present in redbones...and both breeds are approximately the same age?
In my opinion....different breeding practices over time.
That's the same reason most of the breeds look different...because at one time looks and color...was a major criteria that breeders used. But about 30 or so odd years ago give or take 5 either way...walker breeders...and to a lesser extent English breeders stopped caring about looks and went purely after performance ability. I remember when Lee Logan did this...he may have been one of the earliest I remember. He had some of the most God Awful looking walkers at a time when everyone loved a blanket back red headed purty walker...Lee's walkers were black and white...mostly white. Big blaze faces...sometimes calico ears, feet like a duck sometimes...just ugly.
But when you drew one...you came to understand why a man would have something so ugly on the end of his leash!
A dog from Lee's was the first 3 generation all Grand Nite walker sire....a big deal back in 1989. That ugly dog named Wessel's Wild Casey sure stirred up the walker world and a lot of guys who used to care about looks suddenly cared more about performance and winning...and the walker breed took off and never looked back.
We in the redbone breed can learn a lot from the walker breed....but we don't have to steal from them and their hard work...we just need to improve the way we breed for better competition redbones...
One day...we will all look at the reproducers lists and start to see patterns. Such as several, maybe even a majority of current or historic reproducers...both males and females populating the top 10 male and female list are related....or maybe they have a connection to a particular breeder or several breeders working together with the same goals and methods of reaching those goals. Some will say ....Oh that's just luck or coincidence...but others might see it as more as the years go by and the dots seem to connect more and more.
I have always tracked the progress of both walkers and redbones....mainly because I am breeding redbones...and I view walkers as the yardstick in upper level competition circles. I have seen plenty of these dots connecting over the years in walkers...and the female side is where it's most evident to me.
I know walker bloodlines almost as well as redbone bloodlines so it's easy for me to trace the lineage back and see the same recurring patterns that propelled that breed forward ahead of all other breeds. We can keep doing what we been doing and get what we have always got...or we can change the criteria, methods, and goals we are breeding for and maybe get something we have never got....
I have been working towards the latter...

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-28-2017 at 01:59 AM

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

Then why cross breed unless you can't find a line bred redbone with the traits you're looking for? I agree that's the only way any cross should be made though, no matter the side/dam, at least my preference currently.

I'm not convinced we may see anymore grand success from x-breeds than we haven't already. One hit wonders won't count, litters with a high percentage of actual coondogs is all that matters on down the road, plus reproducing ability of the same.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Kelly, that may be true of today's competition Redbones that are being bred today. But that wasn't true in the past. Most Redbone breeders started breeding for competition Redbones. But to get there they had to breed for just red colored walker dogs. In order to win they had to change the breed traits but keep the red color.
So for good or bad this is what we have come down to. Kelly, I guess that you are right. The only difference now is the color.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

One reason I believe the Walker and the English breeds seem to win more big hunts than other breeds is that they left their single registration open to a wider group of dogs and did not limit the dogs to as strict of a color requirement. Those English hounds have come from nowhere to take their share of trophies. If your old enough you can remember when all they had to be was houndy and either two or three colors and the English breed would accept your hound. Tri colored, red and white ,blue and white, ticks or no ticks the English Association would give you papers. This gave a wider group of coonhounds and their traits to concentrate as a breeder. The Walkers did pretty much the same thing. Black and white , tricolored , almost solid black and tan with some white it didn't matter.
Does anyone see the connection that the more accepting of color variation the more likely the breed has been to win the biggest hunts. HMMMM.
Does color have anything to do with ability, not sure but my guess is that the tighter we control only one trait and the more we allow ourselves to be controlled by just one trait the harder it will be to gather other traits.
Shane , I hunted against many of those old Black and White hounds many times when Lee was the handler. I always enjoyed hunting with him. He never was a big talker during a hunt. I do wish I would have asked him more questions. Maybe next time I see him I will. Those Black and white models are harder to find than they used to be.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Kelly, that may be true of today's competition Redbones that are being bred today. But that wasn't true in the past. Most Redbone breeders started breeding for competition Redbones. But to get there they had to breed for just red colored walker dogs. In order to win they had to change the breed traits but keep the red color.
So for good or bad this is what we have come down to. Kelly, I guess that you are right. The only difference now is the color.

---

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: Crab Orchard, Kentucky
Posts: 360

This question is a little off the subject of crossbreeding but if walkers and English dominate us now in the hunts and the breeding pen. How can we ever catch up? If we take our best of the best and breed them and there best of the best is so much better I don't understand how we as a breed will ever have a chance. It almost makes more sense to breed a top notch red female to the top of the line male of another color to get where we want to go. But then i hear or read all the time where those wont reproduce anything any better than what they are hybrid vigor i guess is what its called. So i am really beginning to wonder what the heck am i doing hunting these redbones that I love so much. It's never gonna get me anywhere it seems. You guys that are breeder please explain all this to me cause this really is a great concern of mine.

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Jerry Shelton
606-282-8323

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Walkers were not always dominant like they are today....
They didn't get where they are by breeding to the breeds who were at the top before they moved into that slot.
Its not all what you breed to...
No one dog or cross propelled the walkers on their upward trajectory...it was a widespread shift in how they bred for competition dogs that over the course of 2 decades set that breed up with a big head start from the other breeds. If we all got on the same page right now on refining our breeding practices...it will still take ten or more years to fully catch up ....as a breed.
It starts out gradually... you see a few dogs breaking that glass ceiling in top level hunts on a regular basis...then you see a few more and then you start to see they are coming from a particular line or breeding program and others start to see those connections and make changes to the way they are breeding and then you start to see real momentum as the changes grow and spread across the breed. I think we may be in the very early stages...but with so many people so unsure of what they are doing in their crosses...many feel like any cross they make is just a shot in the dark where they hope they hit a bullseye once in awhile. What an awful way to breed dogs. If you are not getting what you expect in your crosses...you either don't know what your doing...or your expectations are not realistic. It's a step by step process that takes years to effect major changes. There is no magic stud out there that is just going to come along and be our savior.... the answer is education and persistence. Formulate a good solid plan to reach what your goals are in the perfect redbone and then faithfully execute that plan and don't let other snake oil salesmen sway you with their magical cures for what ailes all redbones.
Who do you believe when there are so many different people saying they know what they are doing?
Find several indicators you trust the most...none are perfect.
Whether they are winner rankings, reproducer rankings etc. Look for lines or breeders who consistently produce results year after year...that's a good place to start...instead of with whoever screams the loudest or makes the most outlandish claims. See who is making real quantifiable progress year after year...not who got lucky one time out of 10 and made a cross that worked really great and produced a big winner. You can't reproduce someone else's luck!
Find people who are not just lucky...but work hard at it and produce repeatable results...I can think of a half dozen redbone breeders that fit this description so they are out there...they are working to improve the problems...but it will take time. If people can't wait for that or help with that...then they may want to just go get a well bred walker and start there....

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-28-2017 at 04:07 AM

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: minden, la
Posts: 622

Im pretty much a newcomer to this breed. I lucked up and got a winner. It was a pure accident I even own him! I don't think his breeding was an accident, I truly believe Dannos litter was well planned and thought out and decided on by Dale Weaver and Royce Taylor. Even though Im new to Redbones, Im not new to winning with a COONDOG. Ive won my share over the last 25 years with several different breeds. I know a coon dog when I see one, and I know a winner when I see one. Its been said and I truly believe, the biggest downfall in this breed is Jealousy! Ive seen it in the short time ive been involved in Redbones. Everyone says It takes a good female to reproduce, which I agree with, but how many really top notch red females are out there? The few that are out there from what ive seen, ole so and so owns her and he don't like ole so and so, so we re not breeding to his stud. Im not sure how many of yall like me, and as I stated before, I don't care. But one thing you can say about me and Danno is we are honest! We win honest and we loose honest. I know he hasn't been on the market really long enough to say hes a reproducer, only time will tell. But this jealousy and these clicks we got in this breed is the reasons Ive been cross breeding him. Ive bred some quality females from different breeds to him because a lot of Redbone female owners want give him a chance. For the record, my feelings aren't hurt, I lost them years ago. If I cant breed good quality Red females to him, Ill breed good quality females to him from other breeds. I have bred a few, very few good Red females in the last few years, but only time will tell.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

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Originally posted by JShelton
This question is a little off the subject of crossbreeding but if walkers and English dominate us now in the hunts and the breeding pen. How can we ever catch up? .

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Now these are just my thoughts and I for sure don't really know what I am doing. I change my mind daily or weekly about what to do. So I don't think that anyone else should do what I do. Everyone should have their own plan. And sometimes no plan is a plan.
Be careful what you ask for, you might get it. Why do y'all think that so many walker dog guys want a Redbone? The walkers became dominate in the comp hunts because that is what they bred for. They gave up brains, sense, looks, pleasure to hunt, handling, personality and disposition, accuracy and mouth. They only bred for speed, drive and tree. So be careful if you only want a red colored walker dog you might get one.
But it might be useful to stop and think just why you wanted and loved Redbones to begin with. And what besides just color separated them from walker dogs.

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2767

quote:

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Originally posted by kasey dooly
. Its been said and I truly believe, the biggest downfall in this breed is Jealousy! Ive seen it in the short time ive been involved in Redbones. Everyone says It takes a good female to reproduce, which I agree with, but how many really top notch red females are out there? The few that are out there from what ive seen, ole so and so owns her and he don't like ole so and so, so we re not breeding to his stud. .

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Kasey, was Danno's mother a top competition Redbone Female? I have hunted with several of Danno's brothers and they are all nice. That is/was a great cross.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Oh my goodness, do you really think that the walker dog guys aren't jealous of each other? I am not saying that Redbone breeders aren't but come on now, the walker dog guys are just as bad if not worse. Blaming everything on jealousy is taking the easy way out.

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