UKC Forums - Scoring question?

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Posted by Tim MACHA on 09-13-2016 04:31 AM:

Last sentence of 11b

However, if dog(s) are already treed, handlers have the option to hold onto or release dog(s) so long as at least one dog is not declared treed.

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Posted by rob thompson on 09-13-2016 05:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jimbob_walker
Maybe the difference in this particular situation was the dog out was already struck in.

no the difference was there wasn't a dog treed, if there was it would have kept the 8 off the dog at large and you could have recast.

Posted by jimbob_walker on 09-13-2016 01:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rob thompson
no the difference was there wasn't a dog treed, if there was it would have kept the 8 off the dog at large and you could have recast.

OK, that makes sense that the 8 couldn't run on the dog that was still out, but it doesn't make sense that once you score a tree with dogs still out, you have to walk back to the last place they were heard opening then start the 8 with the dogs still on the leash.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 09-13-2016 05:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jimbob_walker
OK, that makes sense that the 8 couldn't run on the dog that was still out, but it doesn't make sense that once you score a tree with dogs still out, you have to walk back to the last place they were heard opening then start the 8 with the dogs still on the leash.

jimbo your confusing a few different scenarios. Refer back to the original post.

2 dogs treed. 1 dog out running but not struck and 1 dog on the leash. The question was can he re cast his dog?

The answer is yes he can because a dog out running even if it's not struck is to be considered trailing, therefore the dog on the leash has the option to re cast or walk his dog into the 2 treed dogs.

The example your talking about is pulling treed dogs off a tree then walking to the last place the dog or dog(S) were last heard opening and that's where the 8 is to be applied before turning loose.

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Posted by Night Shift on 09-13-2016 06:34 PM:

I guess the more I think about it if you have three dogs treed and one out but not stuck you can recut those dogs with out waiting for the dog that hasn't struck to open.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 09-13-2016 07:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Night Shift
I guess the more I think about it if you have three dogs treed and one out but not stuck you can recut those dogs with out waiting for the dog that hasn't struck to open.

Exactly

Posted by Sonny Phipps on 09-14-2016 04:20 PM:

Re: Re: Scoring question?

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Any dog off the leash is to be considered trailing so A and B have the choice of turning loose or walking into dog C tree.

Where does that come from? Any dog not on leash is considered trailing? I need a better explanation of that.

Here is the catch to it also: if you cut loose before you score the tree, all dogs strike back in for 25. After the tree is scored, strike is open.

My thought would be if the rule rule says "opening" , that's what you have to go by. Not by what was discussed one time and never got changed. JMO

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Posted by Night Shift on 09-14-2016 04:36 PM:

I would rather have 150 to my self then 225 and the other dog get 150 for backing. I cut loose any chance I get.

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Posted by Tim MACHA on 09-14-2016 04:58 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Scoring question?

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
Where does that come from? Any dog not on leash is considered trailing? I need a better explanation of that.

Here is the catch to it also: if you cut loose before you score the tree, all dogs strike back in for 25. After the tree is scored, strike is open.

My thought would be if the rule rule says "opening" , that's what you have to go by. Not by what was discussed one time and never got changed. JMO

If you would think of it as dogs competing rather than opening, I think it would make more sense to you. Any dog not on leash is considered competing.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 09-14-2016 08:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jimbob_walker
this question came up in a hunt I was on one night. I had minuses out and stayed out with the cast. 3 dogs left a and b were treed and scored and dog c was out. Judge said no one could cut loose til dog c had opened. The judge was a friend , but I questioned him on it. I told him that didn't seem fair to the dogs on a lead. The next day we both called ukc and we're told you could not cut loose until dog c opened. I believe it was Allen who we had both talked to.

Turning loose without Dog C opening first depends on whether C was declared struck or not. If declared struck, you wait until the C dog opens. If not declared struck, cut 'em without regard to dog C.

Posted by J I Allen on 09-14-2016 10:47 PM:

Allen, it seems as though the dogs on the leash are being penalized waiting for dog C to open again when they could be turned loose and if struck break the 8. If held on the leash that allows dog C to tree for 125 because the next bark could be a locate and dog C's handler immediately tree him while the other dogs are standing with the handlers. I feel the dogs should be recast as soon as the handlers have walked from the tree to the point the dogs will not go back to the tree just scored. The name of the game is tree as many coons as you can in 2 hours and wasting 8 minutes for a dog out of pocket to bark is wasting the dogs just treed valuable time, you're not just competing against the people in your cast but hunters in the other cast as well.

Posted by Rip on 09-15-2016 12:12 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Scoring question?

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
Where does that come from? Any dog not on leash is considered trailing? I need a better explanation of that.

Here is the catch to it also: if you cut loose before you score the tree, all dogs strike back in for 25. After the tree is scored, strike is open.

My thought would be if the rule rule says "opening" , that's what you have to go by. Not by what was discussed one time and never got changed. JMO

The problem is that it was OFICIALLY changed. That is the OFFICIAL interpretation of that rule by UKC.

It does't matter that the wording never got changed, they said that's that that sentence meant and that is the end of it.

We don't have to agree with it, but we do have to abide by it.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 09-15-2016 12:37 AM:

So don't really matter if D is struck or not struck. One is treed you cut em loose if you want to.

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 09-15-2016 12:40 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Scoring question?

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
The problem is that it was OFICIALLY changed. That is the OFFICIAL interpretation of that rule by UKC.

It does't matter that the wording never got changed, they said that's that that sentence meant and that is the end of it.

We don't have to agree with it, but we do have to abide by it.

First off I'm in favor of cutting loose when we can, my point is that if it says in black and white on the back of the score (official rules) "opening" , that's what it is. If this rule cost me a major win I would appeal all the way. Even Allan can't change a rule from what's written cause he feels like it.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 09-15-2016 04:34 PM:

Sonny, how familiar are you with the section in the rulebook directly above Rule 1?

Posted by Allen / UKC on 09-15-2016 04:35 PM:

In 12 years, I have never based the resolve of an appeal on the premises of "cause I felt like it". Never have and never will.

Posted by Night Shift on 09-15-2016 04:49 PM:

Upon being scored, dog(s) must be turned loose with other dogs that are opening on trail to compete for next available strike points. However, if dog(s) are already treed, handlers have the option to hold onto or release dog(s) so long as at least one dog is not declared treed. Read the last sentence it says nothing about a dog that has to be open. Sonny your getting confused on what you do when dogs are trailing and when there is a dog treed. Two different situations two different rules.

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 09-15-2016 06:30 PM:

Got it. Thanks for all the help of me understanding.

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Posted by Frank M on 09-16-2016 11:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Night Shift
Upon being scored, dog(s) must be turned loose with other dogs that are opening on trail to compete for next available strike points. However, if dog(s) are already treed, handlers have the option to hold onto or release dog(s) so long as at least one dog is not declared treed. Read the last sentence it says nothing about a dog that has to be open. Sonny your getting confused on what you do when dogs are trailing and when there is a dog treed. Two different situations two different rules.

Jason, read the first sentence of your post. It says once scored dog (s) to be turned back into dog (s) OPENING ON TRAIL. In the case of this cast all dogs that had been declared stuck had been declared treed. Yes there was a 4th dog in the cast but that dog had never been struck that means it's not "opening on trail".

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Posted by ThatBlueDog on 09-16-2016 12:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Frank M
Jason, read the first sentence of your post. It says once scored dog (s) to be turned back into dog (s) OPENING ON TRAIL. In the case of this cast all dogs that had been declared stuck had been declared treed. Yes there was a 4th dog in the cast but that dog had never been struck that means it's not "opening on trail".

Why stop at the first sentence? Read the second one to get your answer. You have the option to recut if dog or dogs are declared treed so long as there is one dog not declared treed.

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Posted by Night Shift on 09-16-2016 03:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Frank M
Jason, read the first sentence of your post. It says once scored dog (s) to be turned back into dog (s) OPENING ON TRAIL. In the case of this cast all dogs that had been declared stuck had been declared treed. Yes there was a 4th dog in the cast but that dog had never been struck that means it's not "opening on trail".

The Next sentence says However and then goes on to describe a different situation and mentions nothing about a dog having to be open.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-10-2016 08:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Because I distinctly remember this conversation.

The rule does read "opening" but I was told officially here on the board that was an oversight and that really they meant competing for strike.

I didn't agree with it because that's not what the words on the card say and we are still dealing with the english language but I abide by it because it was the official interpretation of the rule.

I am not sure but I think it was Allan that gave us that one during that particular discussion. I was arguing that a dog had to be opening/struck in and I was told I was wrong. I hate being wrong so I remember it LOL.

The wording was supposed to get changed but I see it hasn't.

You're correct, although what you're saying above is the previous sentence as it relates to situations where no dog is declared treed. The problem was the last two words in the next sentence. Regardless, the wording was an oversight on our part and not the way we wanted it to be. It was not supposed to matter whether or not a dog was trailing or not.

That wording in question and as shown in the 2011 rulebook (black cover) read: However, if dog(s) are already treed, handlers have the option to release dog(s) so long as at least one dog is still out trailing. That word trailing is what caused the problem which suggests that the dog still out would need to be declared struck (trailing).

We did in fact correct it at the next opportunity which was in the 2014 rulebook. This is the red covered book which is currently still in effect. It reads: However, if dog(s) are already treed, handlers have the option to hold onto or release dog(s) so long as at least one dog is not declared treed.

By saying "not declared treed" we hoped that would resolve the problem and make it obvious that is doesn't matter whether or not the dog that is at large is declared struck or not.

Working on updating the new rulebook for 2017 and wanted to be sure we fixed this, if we hadn't already done so.

Quit scarin' me like that! lol.

Posted by Rip on 10-11-2016 02:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
You're correct, although what you're saying above is the previous sentence as it relates to situations where no dog is declared treed. The problem was the last two words in the next sentence. Regardless, the wording was an oversight on our part and not the way we wanted it to be. It was not supposed to matter whether or not a dog was trailing or not.

That wording in question and as shown in the 2011 rulebook (black cover) read: However, if dog(s) are already treed, handlers have the option to release dog(s) so long as at least one dog is still out trailing. That word trailing is what caused the problem which suggests that the dog still out would need to be declared struck (trailing).

We did in fact correct it at the next opportunity which was in the 2014 rulebook. This is the red covered book which is currently still in effect. It reads: However, if dog(s) are already treed, handlers have the option to hold onto or release dog(s) so long as at least one dog is not declared treed.

By saying "not declared treed" we hoped that would resolve the problem and make it obvious that is doesn't matter whether or not the dog that is at large is declared struck or not.

Working on updating the new rulebook for 2017 and wanted to be sure we fixed this, if we hadn't already done so.

Quit scarin' me like that! lol.

I didn't mean to scare you. I never looked to see if it had been changed or not personally because I didn't need to. I had the ruling and that was all that mattered. Then when this came back up the other day and I just read what was posted here and assumed it was still written that way on the card.

My apologies sir.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-11-2016 02:03 PM:

No apologies necessary, it's all good. It's been a good while ago and was concerned that we did fail to correct it. Thought we had but when this discussion came up, I was second-guessing myself.

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