UKC Forums - Coon Dogs & Race Horses, It's all in the Genetics !!!!

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Posted by Randy Howard on 02-19-2014 01:45 AM:

I am maybe looking to breed a 1/2 brother 1/2 sister cross
in about a year if all goes well. Trying to rebuild on some old blood. What are some opinions on this, I am by no means a big time breeder just have always enjoyed a cold nose to cold/medium nosed dog that can drift a track, brains, desire to please, trainable not crazy wild, and accurate with coons not trees and some what independent
Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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Posted by Eric Bierman on 02-19-2014 01:48 AM:

This is a very interesting subject. I wish I could elaborate more, but being kind of drunk right right now, I don't want to misword or misspeak. I work in the A.I. industry with beef and dairy cattle, now with genomics some of the things we once thought are different. LOL I wish I was sober so I could respond better.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-19-2014 01:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtdevil
yeah , mom and dad both contribute the same number of chromosomes and such .. and the dominate dna is supposed to be the one expressed most ... but by and large , in reality .. it's momma's babies .. daddy's maybe.

We see it in so many studs ...dogs or horses , the sire's daughters produce better and more of his traits than he did .... and in that case , he wasn't even there when the conception happened ! So contribution of chromosomes sure aint the main factor of the grandparents wouldn't even be in the picture

So are you saying that for the most part that the only job of the sire is to fertilize the egg, and it's momma's job to determine what kind of hound you get?

If that is the case, I've been breeding the wrong males.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Dirtdevil on 02-19-2014 02:03 AM:

Did you see where I wrote that ? or do you just want to pretend i did and then argue with what you are pretending I said ? ..

Each parent contributes the same genetic material , yes ... but we still don't know what all is on the female side or sex linked ... and most everyone here talks about getting throwbacks or we double up on a dog like Clover to get another like him ... that would be impossible if the material itself was the main factor .. because Clover aint even the daddy to none of your inbred Clover dogs .

I did say that the explanation for why so many sires are proven through their daughters is because their direct offspring are still their momma's babies ... for whatever reason ... it's just how the Universe or Mother Nature works ... not every time or is it gonna split the sky with the news ... but it was just me chipping in with an aspect that I don't think most recognize when evaluating studs and their offspring ....

Look for daughters of good studs you like and bred to sons of good bitches that had a sire you like ....

I have bred my gyp to two nephews and it follows this pattern and I like it ... just something to think about ... another method to double up on a stud you like that follows suit with a natural phenominon.

If you think I said something , but don't see it written here .. then no need to ask .. the answer is that I didn't say it .... hope that helps .

Posted by l.lyle on 02-19-2014 02:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
As for the actual genetic material and not the expression of the genome the above statement is false.

The male provides 50% of the genetic material, and the female 50%. Yes, the female also provides the genetic material for mitochondrial DNA, but that is a very small part of the total DNA. Something on the order of 0.0001%.

Now with that being said, again remember I am not talking about genetic expression of DNA. That is determined strictly how all the genes pair up.

Any thing that increases our understanding in genetics is a worthwhile pursuit. There are some other details to consider when making a direct comparison of coon dogs and race horses. Two examples are a horse has a rider and speed is a factor of physical attributes. A coon dog also relies on physical traits, but not to the same degree as race horses. Finally, many of the better coon hounds display a higher degree of intellect. Breeding for intellect or behavioral traits is much more difficult than breeding for physical traits.

Push comes to shove, we would all be much better off if we would just increase our levels of breeding stock selection.

I tend to agree. if the Findley River folks and the House folks and the Hershberger folks had decided only theirs was the best and went to line breeding back then, where would we be today?
I might be wrong, but I have heard that Thoroughbreds (at least the top winners ) are line bred to high heaven. Maybe not close but going way back.
A far as a big heart goes, I went to Caulder Race track as a stable boy for my friend that had entered a two year old stud in his maiden claiming race. I had every dime I had bet on him . He broke first and stayed 1st till he fell dead 20 yards from the finnish line. I don't mean fell dead like he ran out of juice, I mean fell skidding dead 5 feet from the line. The autopsy said his heart was twice as big as normal.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-19-2014 02:59 AM:

Dirtdevil,

Actually I'm not trying to do either. I am trying to understand. Here is why I am a little confused. I have a female here that I raised. She has been breed a couple of times to two differnt sires. Now neither of these sires are directly related to her, or I guess for that matter even remotely related to her.

Both litters of pups have been nice pups, and they as individual litters, they are uniform across each litter. BUT the two litters are different from each other. I know that they are out of the same female, but if I were to take you hunting with one pup out of each litter, you would not be able to tell that they are from the same mother.

I raised this female's mother, and I raised this female, and I'm now raising daughters as well....in each generation while I certainly see some similarities from the mother's side, I see vast differences depending on the sire, so I'm interested in what you are saying, but in my experience I'm not seeing what you are saying, or I'm not understanding what you are saying...one of the two.

Here is what I absolutely know to be as true as the sun coming up in the east..... If you have a female that is a poor momma, doesn't do a good job raising pups....her female pups are lousy mommas too.... Good momma's make good momma's. Had another female that was an outstanding mother, she devoted 100% of her life to a newborn litter of pups...willing to nurse 24 X 7 and would share her food bowl with the puppies when they start to experiement with food...right up until those pups were five weeks old...then she became the wicked witch of the west....I mean it..had to take her out from the pups to keep her from killing them. Her daughters are EXACTLY the same way.

I really am not trying to argue, I'm trying to draw a dotted line between what you are writing and my own experience.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Dirtdevil on 02-19-2014 03:16 AM:

Nothing new .. some nice dogs that we like just don't stamp their pups or dominate in the brood pen ..

Most lines that stand the test of time are built around dominate females from top sires that stamp their pups with a trademark ...

We see alot of litters for sale , dogs at stud and gyps on the TRL for awhile ... but for the most part , the ones that stand the test of time and who produce more studs and more daughters on the TRL are from those daughters of top studs that prove they are dominant beyond just contributing their half of the chromosomes .

Hounds are sorry bred compared to livestock ... you never know what you're gonna get ... because we breed our pets or favorites ....

When we start breeding dominant producers from strong litters in a row and building pedigrees full of them ... then the racehorse people will be on their forums talking about us ....

Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 02-19-2014 04:02 AM:

I have a friend that has raised Fighting chickens all his life, he has kept records of his breedind programs, he says you get your best out of daughters of champions,and then out of those daughters you get your next great males.
This man at 1 time could pull out carbon copies of one another,just think if we could do that consistently with these hounds.....

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Posted by l.lyle on 02-19-2014 04:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Van Dusen
I have a friend that has raised Fighting chickens all his life, he has kept records of his breedind programs, he says you get your best out of daughters of champions,and then out of those daughters you get your next great males.
This man at 1 time could pull out carbon copies of one another,just think if we could do that consistently with these hounds.....

Yes, but you can breed sex-linked chickens but you can't breed sex-linked hounds . LOL

Posted by barrelmaker on 02-19-2014 05:00 AM:

CoondogsVs. Horses

I don't know a thing about fighting chickens but I've been coonhunting about 60 years and my family was in the racehorse business in Kentucky. Thoroughbred racehorse breeding is controlled by the Jockey Club, they differ from other associations in that there are no artificial breedings, only live breedings are recognized and have to have a vet present.

Another thing that stands out, the Summer Sale @Keenland is where all the multimillion dollar yearlings are sold. If you want to sell a colt in that sale it has to be from a stakes winning mare, doesn't matter if the sire is the best stud in the world if the mother doesn't qualify they won't accept the colt.

As breeders we could all learn something from them, I've been as guilty as anyone else in thinking the stud dog meant way more than it does.

__________________
Tom Humphrey

Posted by l.lyle on 02-19-2014 05:36 AM:

Re: CoondogsVs. Horses

quote:
Originally posted by barrelmaker
I don't know a thing about fighting chickens but I've been coonhunting about 60 years and my family was in the racehorse business in Kentucky. Thoroughbred racehorse breeding is controlled by the Jockey Club, they differ from other associations in that there are no artificial breedings, only live breedings are recognized and have to have a vet present.

Another thing that stands out, the Summer Sale @Keenland is where all the multimillion dollar yearlings are sold. If you want to sell a colt in that sale it has to be from a stakes winning mare, doesn't matter if the sire is the best stud in the world if the mother doesn't qualify they won't accept the colt.

As breeders we could all learn something from them, I've been as guilty as anyone else in thinking the stud dog meant way more than it does.

That right there is a great deal of difference in a thoroughbred and a working quarter horse. a thoroughbred is not a Horse until it is out of stakes winners. How about the working cow horse or coondog???

Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 02-19-2014 08:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
Yes, but you can breed sex-linked chickens but you can't breed sex-linked hounds . LOL

All I was saying was the daughters of outstanding males,seem to be where the next good males come from.
There has been a lot of studs benefit from daughters of other great reproducers: ie-Sackett Jr.x Lipper daughters.

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"Coma Power"
"It's in the blood"
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CELL-219-575-0067

Posted by Trinket clark on 02-22-2014 10:53 AM:

Good Females is the Key,

Look for daughters of good studs you like and breed to sons of good bitches that have a sire you like ....(dirt devil ) very true!!!

If you have a line or strain of dogs you like and have been breeding for yrs and let's say you want to make a outcross ,you are better of breeding your line bred female to a Prepotenant outcross male, cause you are more apt to keep a bigger % of the traits and tendencies of your female...
Let me also make the statement, as many others have already said ..when breeding if you don't like what you got don't breed it!!! Cause 9 times out of 10 your going to get what you already have!!!
My personal preference is to line breed heavy, but only use the best out of each litter...use the pup that has all the traits you want to keep...Period!!

If it don't have it, don't assume that just because of the way it's bred it will throw what you want..Cause it probably ain't going to happen!
Be selective in your breeding process, line breed heavy, but only use the dogs that have the traits you want to keep.

And remember," In front of every good stud Dog there is a even better reproducing Female". (That's The Key)
The Horse world not only believes this they enforce it....

__________________
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Home of over 25 yrs of Line bred Brookshier hounds!
Home of Line bred Durbins Rambler Hounds and heavy line bred Rolling Hills hounds.

~Where a man's word still means something & a handshake is all We need!!!

~Grntch Chestnut Grove Ben Semen(Full Brother to Uplinger's Joe & Son of Logan's Wild Clover x Sandy Creek Daisy) Not For Sale - Frank Hummel/Jason Clark

~Grntch Hardwood Whiner/Rolling Hills Hunter Semen(Son of Durbin's Rambler x Rolling Hills Jane) Not For Sale

~Dual ch.Brookshiers Finley River Driver(2007 Walker days 1st place & high scoring walker male sat) (Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~3 Wins to Grand, Nitch Clark's Mr.Wilson HTX(Driver x Cane River Cry Babe) Qualified 2014, 2016 UKC World Hunt
~Brookshier's Finley River Salty (Grntch. Brookshier's Finley River Sting x Cane River Trudy,Trudy is a Littermate to Wilson and Sassy)
~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper (Driver x Kraviks Babe) Uncle niece cross
~Brookshier's Finley River Momba (Driver X Kraviks Babe) Uncle Niece Cross
~Nitch Cane River Sassy (Driver x Cane River Cry Babe)Qualified 2012 UKC World Hunt
~Clark's Finley River Spot(Finley River Zig x Ramblin Jane) Winer and Ramblin Jane are Brother&Sister
~Clark's Rolling Hills Skinner (Grntch Hardwood Winer x Clark's Finley River Spot)
~Nitch Brookshier's Crosscountry Gert. (Uncle Lee x Crosscountry music) Daughter of Lone Pine Dewey
~Nitch Brookshier's Finley River Viper(Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~Brookshier's Fullblown Rage (Uncle Lee x Finley River Molly ) Daughter of F.R. Lonnie x Fulkerson's F.R. Suzy
~Clark's Little River (Grntch Shoemakers Gator x Grntch Shoemakers Lou
~Brookshier's Otter Creek Dan (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Little Lady (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Penns. Scooby (Denny Burn's Willie x Backwater Kate ,Uncle Lee's mother)

Posted by Randy Howard on 02-22-2014 11:56 PM:

Thanks Mr. Clark,

Posted by Trinket clark on 02-23-2014 02:47 AM:

We all are still learning,

I learn new stuff all the time..you just have to listen. But, you have to shut your mouth long enough to hear what others are saying... :-) Doubt I'm the only one with this problem from time to time.....hahaha we just need to be reminded on accasion ...So keep talkin cause I'm listening!

Randy Howard your welcome...

Posted by bowling on 02-23-2014 08:25 AM:

Don't know much about the genetics thing but my stud dog is a dominant reproducer I only breed to coon treeing females with the traits I like and yes I do hunt with the females before I will breed to them and have no problems getting pups that are treeing coons on a regular basis at 7 to 8 mos old and I see my stud dog actions in every one of them no matter the female. I know it has a lot to do with the female but every once in a while there is a dominant stud dog that throws a vast majority of his traits. Don't know that it makes a difference but he has 7 double letters in his DNA and the pups that I have had DNA profiled have at least 6 doubles in them. But what do I know I am just a backwoods coonhunter but I have been at it for 45 years.

Posted by blocksporthound on 02-23-2014 02:48 PM:

I breed racing greyhounds so of course like TBs we have our pedigree experts and consultants. The big thing is to know the difference between line breeding and inbreeding and WHEN to outcross. The old saying goes " linebreed, linebreed, outcross". Also when you have the freak in the litter ( there was a race dog named Talentedmrripley) and the rest of the litter are duds, don't go run breed to the freak. Because he is just that, a freak. And like Secretariat, freaks don't reproduce. I look for litter depth. Also it is pretty easy to tell if a sire is a sire of sires or a damsire. Many sires claim to fame will be through their daughters, not their sons. Also I have seen a race dog like Gable Dodge become the sire of sires....almost all of his great sons have become great reproducers themselves. But the daughters of Gable Dodge have not produced to their opportunities. Same with his sons. That is not to say you won't get an exception to the rule. The gene pool in walkers is huge. But there should be some dominant female tail lines that have emerged that you always want at the very bottom of that pedigree and there should be some top sire lines that you wan to see at the very top of the pedigree. You might do a 4x4 House bred and 3x4x4x5 Sackett in one pedigree. But you need to know what those numbers mean and where they fall in the pedigree. And the outcross is obviously the percentage of uncommon ancestors in the pedigree. We like to see under 8% which usually involves breeding to a Irish or Australian greyhound.
I know I am not a huge breeder of coondogs but I do understand analyzing a pedigree. I wish I could post some examples of a perfectly linebreed dog vs inbred. To linebreed the common ancestors need to both be at the bottom of the sites pedigree and the top of the dams in the same generation if that makes sense. I love pedigree research....so I hope I didn't totally repeat everything you already know....:-)

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Posted by Trinket clark on 02-23-2014 06:13 PM:

Love this stuff,

This IS good reading..was hoping to get other breeders of different breeds of working dogs, race horses,pulling horses, fighting chickens, etc..And that's what we are getting...keep them coming.

Blocksporthound- great info, doesn't matter if we all repeat something ,that just means we read it twice and maybe some of it will stick...

Everyone's input is great, it's all pertinent to the end product !!!

Posted by Randy Howard on 02-23-2014 10:43 PM:

blocksporthound, would like to see some of the peds. I am working on trying to rebuild some old blood and am working my way to what you were saying about ancestors top and bottom of the same but do not plan on breeding anymore 1/2 to 1/2 brother sister I have a plan and hope it works out trying to get back closer to the same blood lines top and bottom but it will probably take another 6 yr's to get it back closer to what I want, will see.
Keep up the post learning a little here, like it

Posted by blocksporthound on 02-24-2014 01:17 AM:

Let me see if I can pull up some good examples off greyhound-data. It really doesn't matter what you are breeding pedigrees work the same. I really enjoy studying them. I wish there was an online source like greyhound-data as we can do testmatings etc. Just like the TBs. I will see what I can come up with at great examples.

__________________
"The Frozen Semen Specialist"
CCH GRCH 'PR' Brushy Mtn Dust To Diamonds
BMOS SETW Days 'PR' Knockhill Fast Freddy

Posted by jimbob_walker on 02-24-2014 02:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by blocksporthound
Let me see if I can pull up some good examples off greyhound-data. It really doesn't matter what you are breeding pedigrees work the same. I really enjoy studying them. I wish there was an online source like greyhound-data as we can do testmatings etc. Just like the TBs. I will see what I can come up with at great examples.

Blocksporthound, I am really interested in your knowledge of genetics and how to apply them to get what you are wanting. I have been doing some research and talking with others that have some knowledge of line breeding and outcrossing. If you would have the time id really like to get your number and talk for awhile. If your interrested in giving up some of your time you can pm me your number.thanks

Posted by Trinket clark on 03-01-2014 03:04 PM:

I'm a little confused, someone made the comment ( you all act like your still breeding for visible traits, or phenotypes...)..
Not trying to be smart, call me a dumby ...But I need to know what they mean.....At this time I base all my crosses on things that I can see or hear. For example - physical build, conformation ,mouth, personality, heart,desire,speed, track style ,tree style, bawl mouth ,chop mouth, trainability, type of nose hot, medium, cold, how early a big % of them start. How they reproduce, are the males better than the females or vice-versa.
I've hunted with or owned the parent, grand parents, great grand parents, and so on...I've Seen or heard all there traits good and bad, I've studied pedigree after pedigree, talked to other breeders, taken notes after notes..
But even after all this I still learn something new every day...So I ask the question again...what traits am I supposed to be breeding for that I can't see or hear...If it's a trait you know about or want. Believe me, you can see or hear it. Cause if you couldn't , why would you want it. What would be the use of having it...

Posted by Dirtdevil on 03-01-2014 03:09 PM:

Genotype is like the letters HH meaning dominant for whatever H is and you see it (phenotype)

The genotype Hh is dominant also but not "pure" and you will see the trait for H .. but for breeding , the "h" will come back on you later ...

What he's saying is the basis for genetics comes from plants or blood work or something where we can label the HH's , Hh and hh's correctly and find out what is what when we cross.

IN hounds , you can only go on phenotype .. you will never know the Hh from the hh from the HH or what trait is stronger ...

So there is only so much use we can get from the typical breeding models we study in genetics or whatever ... on our best day , we are still winging it .

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-01-2014 09:46 PM:

Actually, that isn't completely correct, Dirtdevil. If you know the family history, you can create a genetic analysis pedigree.

Chapter 6 of Control of Canine Genetic Diseases is titled The Interpretation and Use of Pedigrees to Determine the Genetic Status of Given Dogs.

__________________
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Aim small miss small

Posted by Fisher13 on 03-01-2014 09:58 PM:

Great thread!

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