UKC Forums - is this rule that hard to understand ?

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-- is this rule that hard to understand ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=302896)

Posted by longshot on 09-29-2009 10:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
In today's world this rule has become an issue and needs addressed. Until then it is as simple as it states "after two coon OR one hour has elapsed" all strike positions become open again. Rule 7 doesn't use the term consecutive so it hasn't been interpreted as such.

With the option to recast it does lend even more concerns of being unfair to the dog who treed the first coon. I guess the handler may want to consider that if he does have the option to hang onto his dog until after B is scored. ??

Allen explained it very well in the post above. This is the way it should be scored until it is changed. AND I do believe it needs changed and likely will be changed , but until them we have to go by what it says now , even though it was done wrong in the final World cast. That is history.

Jim's idea for change in a post above is not bad for a suggestion , but I personally still think it should simply read '' any dog turned back in goes in for next available position '' and just leave it at that and keep it simple.

I'd just drop the non working dog rule . The way I look at it , if he ain't working and getting treed , he ain't scoreing and if he ain't scoreing , he ain't winning , even though the dog is a pain in the a$$.

I do like Jim's idea of minusing a track straddling dog after two coons have been treed without him participating. This would alllow you to call time out and move instead of having to cut back in.... The only problem is , YOU WILL HAVE ALOT OF PI$$ED OFF PEOPLE when you minus a dog that is trailing.

I'll have to think about Jim's idea some more before I get on board.

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Posted by longshot on 09-29-2009 10:44 PM:

Here is Jim's post on a suggestion for change and it does make several valid points. I'm just not sure you can minus a trailing dog without you WAR BONNET on , but maybe I can be convinced.. LOL

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The "non-working dog" rule uses the phrase "not working with the cast" but really this rule is about a dog or dogs tieing up strike points all night long and not doing anything productive with them. We have all drawn a cast where a dog strikes in for 100 and then procedes to waller around all night keeping the cast in that same spot the whole time because you can't call time out and depriving the other dogs of a fair chance to get that 100 strike. None of this is important in PKC or AKC because you are only concerned with winning the cast but in UKC the goal is to score maximum points and a track wallering dog holding 100 is screwing all the other dogs out of the opportunity to get those points. That is the reason for the non-working dog rule.
It shouldn't have been called a non-working dog rule, it should have been called the "can't-move-a-track-and-needs-shot" rule.
Make it simple. Anytime two coons are treed while a dog is holding the same strike points, those strike points are minused. That opens it back up for everyone and gives an incentive to breed out the track wallering dog which to me is 10 times worse than a tree monster that can't tree a coon. Forget the 1 hour part of the rule. No judge in the history of UKC hunts has every started a 1 hour clock when a dog strikes for 100 so how could he possibly know when that hour is up?

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Posted by patches9452 on 09-29-2009 11:15 PM:

minus

i don,t agree with minus after 2 coons scored but i do agree on a time frame to minus...it would be very possible hunting over feeders to minus strike on a dog in less than 10 or 15 min. just cause he struck a running coon and want quit and cover the other dogs...jmo

Posted by longshot on 09-29-2009 11:28 PM:

Re: minus

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
i don,t agree with minus after 2 coons scored but i do agree on a time frame to minus

Yea but Jim has a point that no judge in history has ever kept time on when a dog struck in. There is just no way to keep time on dogs trailing. That would take a whole panel of judges. A judge has enough to keep track of already.

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Posted by on 09-29-2009 11:46 PM:

Heck, I have seen near wars started when a dog is minused for moving, leaving a tree, strike and or treeing wrong dog......etc. To heck with that! Make your call, cast vote, question on card. One word beyond that they get warned to shutup. Next time they are gone. No WAR BONNETS allowed.

Posted by on 09-29-2009 11:51 PM:

I would not have a problem with longshot's suggestion that we just make it so they always go back in for next available except foir one problem. In UKC, you win or lose based on total points scored. A couple track wallowers can unfairly prevent good dogs from getting strike points they deserve compared to a cast that doesn't happened to have a track wallower tieing up 1st and maybe 2nd strike all night long. We already have to contend with luck of the draw in the guides we hunt with. Luck of the draw in getting stuck with a dog that ties up strike points all night makes luck too much of a factor.

Posted by elvis on 09-30-2009 12:16 AM:

Re: is this rule that hard to understand ?

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
ether i'm dumb as a rock or this rule is plain as can be !!

if dog is not working as part of cast & holding 1st strike or 2nd strike ect. ALL ALL ALL STRIKE POINTS WILL BE OPEN TO OTHER DOGS !!!!!!!!! after coon have been treed & seen in 2 seperate tree's.

dont this rule just reach out & slap you in the face & tell you ALL STRIKE POINTS !!!!!! why try to twist this around, it reads pretty dagone clear to me that ALL STRIKE POINTS WILL BE OPEN TO OTHER DOGS !!!!

MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING I DONT EVEN SEE HOW YOU CAN QUESTION THIS RULE. READS PRETTY CUT & DRY TO ME !!

maybe the hard part to understand is how a dog can tree one coon and strike back in over other dogs that have also treed 1 coon only faster.
its hard to understand how the top organization in the world (imo) could allow such a pitiful rule to be on the books and decideing cast winners every weekend.
anyone with an ounce of common sense knows perfectly well that this rule was intended to keep a nonworking dog from holding top strike points all nite. A dog that has not had 2 coon treed on it IS NOT A NON WORKING DOG and should by no means be struck over.

Posted by on 09-30-2009 01:11 AM:

Elvis, I respectfully disagree. If you have a non-working dog, another dog carrying strike, and another 1-2 dogs that have been able show you 2 coons, I say reward the coon treer and open the strike back up.

I think the rule is pretty clear, tree 2 coon on a dog and 100 strike opens back up.

Posted by elvis on 09-30-2009 02:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by brogy
Elvis, I respectfully disagree. If you have a non-working dog, another dog carrying strike, and another 1-2 dogs that have been able show you 2 coons, I say reward the coon treer and open the strike back up.

I think the rule is pretty clear, tree 2 coon on a dog and 100 strike opens back up.

Brogy
I respect your opinion, but what makes the dog that treed the second coon the coon tree'er and not the first?

No way no how should a dog ever be struck in over another dog unless that dog has had 2 coon treed on it or one hr of hunting time has elapsed while it was holding its strike position.

Posted by on 09-30-2009 02:47 AM:

I see your point if we're taking 2 separate dogs making 2 separate trees = 2 coon. But if we're talking dogs ABC&D getting struck, and Dogs B,C&D getting treed plus, recasting and all get struck and dogs B&C getting treed with plus again, now D is not a nonworking dog but A is a nonworking dog. B&C are not given the opportunity to get 100 strike... that don't seem right at all.

Posted by Todd Miller on 09-30-2009 03:20 AM:

Lets just keep even simpler

Until all dogs are re-cast at the same time, then you can only get stuck back in for 25.

Posted by Joe S. on 09-30-2009 04:24 AM:

Re: Re: minus

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
Yea but Jim has a point that no judge in history has ever kept time on when a dog struck in. There is just no way to keep time on dogs trailing. That would take a whole panel of judges. A judge has enough to keep track of already.

i hope everyone of them trail the whole night and never tree wont hurt my feelings when im pulling mine off the hardwood dont minus um let um run~

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Posted by on 09-30-2009 01:31 PM:

Oh I'd let'em run all night. Minus'em, restrike on or before the 3rd, minus'em again two coons later......all night long.

Posted by Todd Miller on 09-30-2009 01:38 PM:

Re: Re: Re: minus

quote:
Originally posted by Joe S.
i hope everyone of them trail the whole night and never tree wont hurt my feelings when im pulling mine off the hardwood dont minus um let um run~

Ya, I am for that. I've been in casts where some dogs just don't tree and run all night. Their easy to beat, heck I just forget about em, like 2 or 3 dog cast.

Posted by Allen Payne on 09-30-2009 03:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM

Make it simple. Anytime two coons are treed while a dog is holding the same strike points, those strike points are minused. That opens it back up for everyone and gives an incentive to breed out the track wallering dog which to me is 10 times worse than a tree monster that can't tree a coon. Forget the 1 hour part of the rule. No judge in the history of UKC hunts has every started a 1 hour clock when a dog strikes for 100 so how could he possibly know when that hour is up?

Jim, that might work but help me out here, when would the judge decide to minus a dog holding strike points? Like in the world hunt Hammer had first strike De had second and Rock third, Rock trees a coon and Hammer trees another coon all before De trees his coon, so what does the judge use as a guide to give De more time on his track before minusing him? I don't think I have a clear understanding of what you are saying. In this new age of independent split treeing always alone dogs it moves us into unchartered territory in some of these scoring situations when we have rules that are thirty or forty years old that were actually designed in the day when dogs were judged on how quick they could get a track struck and move it and get that coon treed and the other dogs were usually working in a pack on that same coon. Like everything else in life coon hunting and dogs are always evolving and maybe we've come to the place where these old rules no longer serve the purpose.

Posted by on 09-30-2009 04:19 PM:

You are right Allen. All of this prolly adds up to WHY all the other KC's just make it simple by only allowing a new set of strike points when all dogs are competing for 1st strike. That is prolly the best and simplest way to handle it.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 09-30-2009 04:21 PM:

What about if any one dog gets scored on 2 +trees while the no tracking sucker is still walloring the same track he gets minused or scratched? Or he just gets moved down to 25 strike points and can try to add to them the rest of the night. ( :

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Posted by Jason Payne on 09-30-2009 05:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Make it simple. Anytime two coons are treed while a dog is holding the same strike points, those strike points are minused. That opens it back up for everyone and gives an incentive to breed out the track wallering dog which to me is 10 times worse than a tree monster that can't tree a coon.

I like this idea

If two dogs tree two different coon on a cast and mine didn't get a piece of either one, and is still out opening on track, it's time to take a hard look at what I've brought to the woods that night....

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Posted by Wildhounds on 09-30-2009 09:30 PM:

" Lets just keep even simpler

Until all dogs are re-cast at the same time, then you can only get stuck back in for 25."

Thanks for this, Todd!

Apparently that's how most of the judges I have hunted under do it. Whether my dog gets 2 plus trees or him and another dog gets 2 plus trees, we have always only been allowed to recast out to the two other dogs still tracking for 25+.

I thought this was not fair to the two dogs who are busy treeing coon, but it makes sense that ALL dogs have to be cast at once for full set of points.

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