UKC Forums - Got A Question For You Comp Hunters

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Posted by T-Monroe on 04-01-2013 03:53 PM:

Got A Question For You Comp Hunters

I have been doing comp hunts for a couple of years now but never ran into this situation before. I have a 2 year old female that tracks and trees as hard as any. But here is my question, she use to be a belly up tree dog until she got bumped off a few times by some tree jackin hounds. Now she still tracks hard and trees as good as any, but she will not get up on the tree with other hounds, she does get up on the tree when alone. She will be at the tree within 5 feet treeing if other hounds are there and will stay put. She will be circling the tree looking up, barking when I come into the tree. Would she be minus if she is not on the tree, but circling it still treeing? Is this a fault that would keep her out of comp hunts? Thanks for any help on this question; I would just like to know before I spend my time and money to take a hound that would just be minus out every time.

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Posted by Brother David on 04-01-2013 03:57 PM:

Depends on what kind of cast draw out with . As for myself if she was honoring the tree in a reasonable manner I would have no problem. Have seen al kind of tree minded dogs

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 04-01-2013 03:58 PM:

Now she is perfect shows she will stay out of trouble

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Posted by JiM on 04-01-2013 04:01 PM:

No matter what they say about nose to the ground, canopy of the tree, etc., the rule book states that all they are required to do once declared treed is bark once every two minutes AND STAY! The only way they can be minused for leaving is if THEY LEAVE the tree.
On page 35 in the Advisor book is an article titled "Legislating Tree Style". I wish everyone would read it. Maybe UKC should make it a sticky for awhile. That article is the answer to this question.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 04-01-2013 04:07 PM:

jim dont it say something about dog must be showin tree.been couple years since ive dealt with this stuff maybe its startin to show lol.stayin outa trouble and lookin up is treed in my books.

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Posted by Rob Reid on 04-01-2013 04:12 PM:

Judges decision, so it depends on how honest your judge is and how bad he wants to win!

Posted by JiM on 04-01-2013 04:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
jim dont it say something about dog must be showin tree.been couple years since ive dealt with this stuff maybe its startin to show lol.stayin outa trouble and lookin up is treed in my books.

No, nothing in the rules refers to "showin treed". I think the rules consider a dog to be showin treed if it barks and stays.

Posted by T-Monroe on 04-01-2013 04:32 PM:

Jim,

I am looking every where for the article titled "Legislating Tree Style" and can not find it any where. Do you have a link to it because I would print it off and put it in my wallet to have at the hunts to show how she should be scored. Just want to cover all bases because Rob makes a good point and one I was worried about.

Thanks

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Posted by croatankid on 04-01-2013 05:43 PM:

i think you should ask your judge about it before going out. get him to commete to a certain distance and still be "at the tree".

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Posted by JiM on 04-01-2013 05:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by T-Monroe
Jim,

I am looking every where for the article titled "Legislating Tree Style" and can not find it any where. Do you have a link to it because I would print it off and put it in my wallet to have at the hunts to show how she should be scored. Just want to cover all bases because Rob makes a good point and one I was worried about.

Thanks

It can be found in The Advisor book, second edition, on page 35.

Posted by josh on 04-01-2013 05:57 PM:

This is a good discussion.

Its is always better to understand the meaning of these rules, but IMO at some point you will probably encounter a judge that dosent or is looking for a reason to minus you.

Not saying that its right, but thats the reality.

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Posted by mauser06 on 04-01-2013 06:37 PM:

Josh you are right...understanding the rules can be tough....the Advisor book is worth owning...I keep it next to my favorite seat in the house..when I am hitting hunts hard I keep it and a score card in the truck...it helps...got a few mins? Read the advisor book, advisor on here or in bloodlines...or read the rules..it helps..but some stuff doesn't sink in till you see it in a hunt and it comes up once in a lifetime lol...still a lot of stuff I haven't seen applied or understand...

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Posted by coonhounds102 on 04-01-2013 06:58 PM:

NO!

ur dog shuld not be minused for being lose on a tree as long as the dog shows the tree and does not leave or put her nose to the groud she will be fine ur dog can meet you when coming into the tree but may not put her nose on the ground and go straight back to the tree

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Posted by ssgied on 04-01-2013 07:03 PM:

Where do people get this put their nose to the ground stuff? I wish someone would show me that rule.

Posted by JiM on 04-01-2013 07:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
Where do people get this put their nose to the ground stuff? I wish someone would show me that rule.

Fair question.
Where they get it is from rule 4(c),which states "if dog goes on trail, just his tree points will be minused". No, that isn't mine, I got it out of Kellam's answer in the Advisor.

These guys are saying if they got their nose on the ground, that equals "trailing". Kellams response indicates trailing does not start when they put their nose on the ground, it starts when they leave the tree. The judgement that must be made is.... did the dog leave the tree or didn't it? That one is basically up to the judge to determine. The rules say any dog at the tree MUST be handled. Myself, I believe if the dog is where, as judge, I would command the dog to be handled for being at the tree, then that dog could not be minused for leaving the tree. If they reach a position that is outside the zone where I say "handle that dog", then that dog has left the tree. So no matter how you slice it, it remains a judgement call that is made by the judge.

Posted by T-Monroe on 04-01-2013 07:46 PM:

From what I am reading on here, it will depend on the judgement call by the hunting judge. If he/she decides that she is to lose on the tree it will go as a minus or if the judge decides she is within the limits she could go plus (if coon is seen). So i'll take her to a hunt this weekend and see how it goes and let all you guys know how it went...Thanks for all the input.

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Posted by JiM on 04-01-2013 07:53 PM:

Good luck and I would familiarize myself with the procedures for questioning a call and making a Formal Complaint, just in case. Read rule 18(b) on page 62 and all of pages 66 and 67 in the rule book.
http://www.ukcdogs.com/res/pdf/2011CBRulebook.pdf

Posted by hlandersjr on 04-01-2013 08:10 PM:

I did not read all the reply's. But I had this question about 2 years ago and I called Allen. Alen said there is not and never was anything about the canopy of the tree. He said that is something a lot of hunters including myself have been minused for. But will not stand up if you question and send to UKC.

If the dog is barking at least one time ever two minutes and showes a tree or place of refruge. He is treed. If he puts his nose to the ground or indicated he is working an active track he is not treed.

It is not up to the judge. The judge might minus you, but if you question it and send the report to UKC and it is overturned you might be saving future hunters with that judge a little trouble.

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Posted by T-Monroe on 04-01-2013 08:12 PM:

I like this rule:

"Dog should not be minused tree points if he comes
back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back
in and trees satisfactorily. Judge should be informed of
such peculiarities before hunt."

Thanks for all the info Jim, you have been a great source of knowledge!

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Posted by Rob Reid on 04-01-2013 08:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by hlandersjr
I did not read all the reply's. But I had this question about 2 years ago and I called Allen. Alen said there is not and never was anything about the canopy of the tree. He said that is something a lot of hunters including myself have been minused for. But will not stand up if you question and send to UKC.

If the dog is barking at least one time ever two minutes and showes a tree or place of refruge. He is treed. If he puts his nose to the ground or indicated he is working an active track he is not treed.

It is not up to the judge. The judge might minus you, but if you question it and send the report to UKC and it is overturned you might be saving future hunters with that judge a little trouble.

Good luck with this, the odds of them over turning the judges ruling is 1,000,000 to 1.

Posted by T-Monroe on 04-01-2013 08:25 PM:

Hey Rob from what your saying it will be like playing the lottery...I like the lottery so i'll give it a shot. What is the worst that can happen, she minuses out and I recieve my answer. Atleast I still gave an entry fee to help support the local clubs which is what we do to keep the clubs and the sport going.

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Posted by josh on 04-01-2013 08:39 PM:

Dont get me wrong here.....odds are you wont have much trouble, most guys are somewhat reasonable.

All im saying is that at some point someone will probably push the issue, right or wrong, you need to know this going in.

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Posted by Rob Reid on 04-01-2013 08:56 PM:

T-Monroe if I was you I would just take her and have fun and not worry about it. However I would most definitely tell the judge about her treeing style before you ever turned loose. If you happen to get minused at the first hunt don't let it stop you from trying agin.

Posted by ssgied on 04-01-2013 09:07 PM:

No where do the rules state " put their nose to the ground ", that I can find. They do say go back on trail. Big difference. If putting their nose to the ground constitutes back on trail, then the 15 would never catch a dog. While he is standing beside you, and puts his nose to the ground, I guess he is back on trail. What I am trying to say is, if a dog is at the tree,and barking at least once every two mins, he meets the minimum requirements, and putting his nose to the ground has no bearing on this what so ever.

Posted by runnin rebels on 04-01-2013 09:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
No where do the rules state " put their nose to the ground ", that I can find. They do say go back on trail. Big difference. If putting their nose to the ground constitutes back on trail, then the 15 would never catch a dog. While he is standing beside you, and puts his nose to the ground, I guess he is back on trail. What I am trying to say is, if a dog is at the tree,and barking at least once every two mins, he meets the minimum requirements, and putting his nose to the ground has no bearing on this what so ever.

what about putting his nose to the ground and barking?

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