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T-Monroe
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Xenia, Ohio
Posts: 578

Got A Question For You Comp Hunters

I have been doing comp hunts for a couple of years now but never ran into this situation before. I have a 2 year old female that tracks and trees as hard as any. But here is my question, she use to be a belly up tree dog until she got bumped off a few times by some tree jackin hounds. Now she still tracks hard and trees as good as any, but she will not get up on the tree with other hounds, she does get up on the tree when alone. She will be at the tree within 5 feet treeing if other hounds are there and will stay put. She will be circling the tree looking up, barking when I come into the tree. Would she be minus if she is not on the tree, but circling it still treeing? Is this a fault that would keep her out of comp hunts? Thanks for any help on this question; I would just like to know before I spend my time and money to take a hound that would just be minus out every time.

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Old Post 04-01-2013 03:53 PM
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Brother David
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Registered: Nov 2012
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Depends on what kind of cast draw out with . As for myself if she was honoring the tree in a reasonable manner I would have no problem. Have seen al kind of tree minded dogs

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StrawberryMt
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Registered: Sep 2010
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Now she is perfect shows she will stay out of trouble

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Old Post 04-01-2013 03:58 PM
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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

No matter what they say about nose to the ground, canopy of the tree, etc., the rule book states that all they are required to do once declared treed is bark once every two minutes AND STAY! The only way they can be minused for leaving is if THEY LEAVE the tree.
On page 35 in the Advisor book is an article titled "Legislating Tree Style". I wish everyone would read it. Maybe UKC should make it a sticky for awhile. That article is the answer to this question.

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Donnie Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2767

jim dont it say something about dog must be showin tree.been couple years since ive dealt with this stuff maybe its startin to show lol.stayin outa trouble and lookin up is treed in my books.

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Rob Reid
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Illinois
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Judges decision, so it depends on how honest your judge is and how bad he wants to win!

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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
jim dont it say something about dog must be showin tree.been couple years since ive dealt with this stuff maybe its startin to show lol.stayin outa trouble and lookin up is treed in my books.


No, nothing in the rules refers to "showin treed". I think the rules consider a dog to be showin treed if it barks and stays.

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T-Monroe
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Xenia, Ohio
Posts: 578

Jim,

I am looking every where for the article titled "Legislating Tree Style" and can not find it any where. Do you have a link to it because I would print it off and put it in my wallet to have at the hunts to show how she should be scored. Just want to cover all bases because Rob makes a good point and one I was worried about.

Thanks

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Old Post 04-01-2013 04:32 PM
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croatankid
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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

i think you should ask your judge about it before going out. get him to commete to a certain distance and still be "at the tree".

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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by T-Monroe
Jim,

I am looking every where for the article titled "Legislating Tree Style" and can not find it any where. Do you have a link to it because I would print it off and put it in my wallet to have at the hunts to show how she should be scored. Just want to cover all bases because Rob makes a good point and one I was worried about.

Thanks


It can be found in The Advisor book, second edition, on page 35.

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Old Post 04-01-2013 05:49 PM
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josh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

This is a good discussion.

Its is always better to understand the meaning of these rules, but IMO at some point you will probably encounter a judge that dosent or is looking for a reason to minus you.

Not saying that its right, but thats the reality.

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mauser06
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 908

Josh you are right...understanding the rules can be tough....the Advisor book is worth owning...I keep it next to my favorite seat in the house..when I am hitting hunts hard I keep it and a score card in the truck...it helps...got a few mins? Read the advisor book, advisor on here or in bloodlines...or read the rules..it helps..but some stuff doesn't sink in till you see it in a hunt and it comes up once in a lifetime lol...still a lot of stuff I haven't seen applied or understand...

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Old Post 04-01-2013 06:37 PM
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coonhounds102
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2009
Location: wi
Posts: 177

NO!

ur dog shuld not be minused for being lose on a tree as long as the dog shows the tree and does not leave or put her nose to the groud she will be fine ur dog can meet you when coming into the tree but may not put her nose on the ground and go straight back to the tree

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ssgied
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: tn
Posts: 667

Where do people get this put their nose to the ground stuff? I wish someone would show me that rule.

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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
Where do people get this put their nose to the ground stuff? I wish someone would show me that rule.


Fair question.
Where they get it is from rule 4(c),which states "if dog goes on trail, just his tree points will be minused". No, that isn't mine, I got it out of Kellam's answer in the Advisor.

These guys are saying if they got their nose on the ground, that equals "trailing". Kellams response indicates trailing does not start when they put their nose on the ground, it starts when they leave the tree. The judgement that must be made is.... did the dog leave the tree or didn't it? That one is basically up to the judge to determine. The rules say any dog at the tree MUST be handled. Myself, I believe if the dog is where, as judge, I would command the dog to be handled for being at the tree, then that dog could not be minused for leaving the tree. If they reach a position that is outside the zone where I say "handle that dog", then that dog has left the tree. So no matter how you slice it, it remains a judgement call that is made by the judge.

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T-Monroe
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Xenia, Ohio
Posts: 578

From what I am reading on here, it will depend on the judgement call by the hunting judge. If he/she decides that she is to lose on the tree it will go as a minus or if the judge decides she is within the limits she could go plus (if coon is seen). So i'll take her to a hunt this weekend and see how it goes and let all you guys know how it went...Thanks for all the input.

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Old Post 04-01-2013 07:46 PM
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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Good luck and I would familiarize myself with the procedures for questioning a call and making a Formal Complaint, just in case. Read rule 18(b) on page 62 and all of pages 66 and 67 in the rule book.
http://www.ukcdogs.com/res/pdf/2011CBRulebook.pdf

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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hlandersjr
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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Magnet, IN.
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I did not read all the reply's. But I had this question about 2 years ago and I called Allen. Alen said there is not and never was anything about the canopy of the tree. He said that is something a lot of hunters including myself have been minused for. But will not stand up if you question and send to UKC.

If the dog is barking at least one time ever two minutes and showes a tree or place of refruge. He is treed. If he puts his nose to the ground or indicated he is working an active track he is not treed.

It is not up to the judge. The judge might minus you, but if you question it and send the report to UKC and it is overturned you might be saving future hunters with that judge a little trouble.

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T-Monroe
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Xenia, Ohio
Posts: 578

I like this rule:

"Dog should not be minused tree points if he comes
back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back
in and trees satisfactorily. Judge should be informed of
such peculiarities before hunt."

Thanks for all the info Jim, you have been a great source of knowledge!

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Old Post 04-01-2013 08:12 PM
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Rob Reid
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Illinois
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quote:
Originally posted by hlandersjr
I did not read all the reply's. But I had this question about 2 years ago and I called Allen. Alen said there is not and never was anything about the canopy of the tree. He said that is something a lot of hunters including myself have been minused for. But will not stand up if you question and send to UKC.

If the dog is barking at least one time ever two minutes and showes a tree or place of refruge. He is treed. If he puts his nose to the ground or indicated he is working an active track he is not treed.

It is not up to the judge. The judge might minus you, but if you question it and send the report to UKC and it is overturned you might be saving future hunters with that judge a little trouble.


Good luck with this, the odds of them over turning the judges ruling is 1,000,000 to 1.

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Old Post 04-01-2013 08:17 PM
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T-Monroe
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Xenia, Ohio
Posts: 578

Hey Rob from what your saying it will be like playing the lottery...I like the lottery so i'll give it a shot. What is the worst that can happen, she minuses out and I recieve my answer. Atleast I still gave an entry fee to help support the local clubs which is what we do to keep the clubs and the sport going.

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Old Post 04-01-2013 08:25 PM
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josh
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Posts: 4236

Dont get me wrong here.....odds are you wont have much trouble, most guys are somewhat reasonable.

All im saying is that at some point someone will probably push the issue, right or wrong, you need to know this going in.

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Old Post 04-01-2013 08:39 PM
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Rob Reid
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 840

T-Monroe if I was you I would just take her and have fun and not worry about it. However I would most definitely tell the judge about her treeing style before you ever turned loose. If you happen to get minused at the first hunt don't let it stop you from trying agin.

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ssgied
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: tn
Posts: 667

No where do the rules state " put their nose to the ground ", that I can find. They do say go back on trail. Big difference. If putting their nose to the ground constitutes back on trail, then the 15 would never catch a dog. While he is standing beside you, and puts his nose to the ground, I guess he is back on trail. What I am trying to say is, if a dog is at the tree,and barking at least once every two mins, he meets the minimum requirements, and putting his nose to the ground has no bearing on this what so ever.

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runnin rebels
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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: mn
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quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
No where do the rules state " put their nose to the ground ", that I can find. They do say go back on trail. Big difference. If putting their nose to the ground constitutes back on trail, then the 15 would never catch a dog. While he is standing beside you, and puts his nose to the ground, I guess he is back on trail. What I am trying to say is, if a dog is at the tree,and barking at least once every two mins, he meets the minimum requirements, and putting his nose to the ground has no bearing on this what so ever.


what about putting his nose to the ground and barking?

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