UKC Forums - Can you actually "train" a coon dog?

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-- Can you actually "train" a coon dog? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=291395)

Posted by jake lunsford on 08-03-2009 07:27 PM:

Can you actually "train" a coon dog?

Can you train a coon dog like they train tracking dogs? Of course the dog has to have natural talent, but can you make him better with actual training? I'm not talking about pairing him up with Old Rufus and hitting the timber, but actually getting out there and laying drags and teaching him how to tree like you teach a dog to do anything else. And without a professionally made coon pen too.

The reason that I am asking is because it seems like we can train the heck out of all kinds of dogs to do some rediculously complex stuff for a dog, but we just seem to show our hound pups a coon a couple times and then just hope they train themselves.

Curious minds await,
Jake

Posted by TreeTex on 08-03-2009 07:38 PM:

I guess it depends on how much time and work your willing to put in and how much knowledge you have of hounds to begin with. I know all dogs need some fine tuneing but i prefer one with lots of natural ability.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 08-03-2009 07:40 PM:

Re: Can you actually "train" a coon dog?

quote:
Originally posted by jake lunsford

The reason that I am asking is because it seems like we can train the heck out of all kinds of dogs to do some rediculously complex stuff for a dog, but we just seem to show our hound pups a coon a couple times and then just hope they train themselves.

Curious minds await,
Jake

There are a lot smarter dogs on this planet than hounds. You can teach a dog to tree a coon, but you cannot teach the desire to tree a coon. This is what makes a dog IMO.

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Posted by chrisb79 on 08-03-2009 08:37 PM:

yep

amen briar

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-03-2009 08:40 PM:

No you cant train a COONDOG. you can expose them to good hunting conditions, you can give possitive reinforcment for good behavior and disipline for bad. You can teach them to handle (lead, load , come when called) thats about it. Its pretty much accepted in the dog world that the border collie is the smartest of the recognized breeds. If you could train a COONDOG we would all be hunting border collies.

Posted by jculler8 on 08-03-2009 08:52 PM:

I think "training" is all about "cleaning up the rough edges" of a hound that has natural born ability to track and tree a raccoon by itself.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 08-03-2009 09:02 PM:

Re: Can you actually "train" a coon dog?

quote:
Originally posted by jake lunsford
...

The reason that I am asking is because it seems like we can train the heck out of all kinds of dogs to do some rediculously complex stuff for a dog, but we just seem to show our hound pups a coon a couple times and then just hope they train themselves.

Curious minds await,
Jake

I'm not sure exactly what " complex stuff " you're talking about. But , if you're talking about drug , bomb , rescue , etc.
Do you have any idea how many dogs they start with just to get the few who actually make it?
How many bomb dogs do you have in the state where you live? The last I knew , which was a few years back , the whole state of Michigan only had 2.

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Posted by TreeTex on 08-03-2009 10:13 PM:

i would never name names but i know a very successfull competition hunter that will shock his dog to make it start treeing again if it stops. He's the only person i ever saw do that. Yall ever seen that?

Posted by coondogedog on 08-03-2009 10:13 PM:

Yes!!! and Yessssss. Hounds can be trained, IF YOU'RE SMARTER THAN HE IS!

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Posted by georgef072007 on 08-03-2009 10:19 PM:

Like a sculptor once said

I didn't create the masterpiece before you, I only removed the rough edges to expose it. "Coon Dogs" aren't really made by training and reinforcement, we're only removing the rough edges, they either have it or they don't. jmo

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Posted by Justin Smith on 08-03-2009 10:20 PM:

Lots of folks can get pups started, but few can finish them ... the difference is in training.

There is no sport on this earth where you can be the best at something by sitting on the tailgate and not training for it .

Boxing , roping , coondogs , basketball ... no matter how great you are you still need training to be a pro . The difference is that most can't see the difference in a dog .

Posted by jackbob42 on 08-03-2009 10:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Justin Smith

Boxing , roping , coondogs , basketball ... no matter how great you are you still need training to be a pro . The difference is that most can't see the difference in a dog .

Name me a top boxer , roper , or basketball player that was trained to be there , but didn't want to be.
How do you put it in there , if it ain't in there in the first place?
We can put the finishing touches on , but we can't train them to do if they don't want to do it. If we could , we'd all have world champion dogs and Michael Jordan kids !

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Posted by Justin Smith on 08-03-2009 10:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
Name me a top boxer , roper , or basketball player that was trained to be there , but didn't want to be.
How do you put it in there , if it ain't in there in the first place?
We can put the finishing touches on , but we can't train them to do if they don't want to do it. If we could , we'd all have world champion dogs and Michael Jordan kids !

I didn't say anything about training a person or dog that doesn't want to be there ... I didn't type it and didn't imply it .

Jordan , with all his talent was cut from the JV and maybe V teams .. he had to go practice and learn how to harness his talent , did you know that ?

His story is not uncommon , many talented young players think their talent will carry them and get cut from teams or get some losses ... they all have to face the fact that at the pro levels , you have to put in the work , practice and training .

Posted by jackbob42 on 08-04-2009 12:14 AM:

I guess it all depends on a person definition of " training " then.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-04-2009 12:25 AM:

The three most important things a coondog does is (1) strike a track (2) run the track (3) locate. tree and stay. I would like to hear from you expert trainers how you have ever taught a dog any one of the three essential things a coondog must do.

Posted by jculler8 on 08-04-2009 02:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
The three most important things a coondog does is (1) strike a track (2) run the track (3) locate. tree and stay. I would like to hear from you expert trainers how you have ever taught a dog any one of the three essential things a coondog must do.

i had a dog once that never stayed treed. she would locate and re run the track from where she struck it to tree... over and over and over again.... there were a handful of nights i left her in the woods because i could not catch her from re running a track.

she is a grnite now and a stay put, pressure type treedog.

i trained her that way. 1 night i got her to flip the light switch on and have never seen her look back since.

maybe it was age. maybe it was instinct. maybe it was training. maybe it was luck but shes aight now.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 08-04-2009 03:07 AM:

i have never scen 1 get better in the pen

Posted by Cliff Williams on 08-04-2009 03:31 AM:

training story

First of all....Sky Blue....why haven't you jumped in on this????

Here's a story...maybe too long for some of you...if so, you probably don't train very long either....

It's by Bob Vest, a now deceased herding clinician and was recently posted on a SAR forum where they're having a heated discussion about whether rescue dogs, or purebred dogs, etc. are best for SAR......it's so, so true, no matter what breed you attempt to train, or what you attempt to train them for.

<<There were three dogs and three handlers. One dog was very talented -
strong instincts and was owned by a man who had little time and or patience
for this dog's overenthusiastic approach to work. The second dog was
mediocre but mildly talented and shared his herding career with a handler
who was indifferent about goals, wasn't driven to win but was content with
doing an average job with this dog. The third dog lacked natural talent and
had little ability on its own but the owner of the dog admired the dog
greatly in spite of what others called a lack of talent. Dog number three
and his handler, went to clinics, practiced religiously, and no matter what
dog number three did, owner three praised the dog for his efforts.

At the end of the one year, dog number one was in a pound waiting to die
because he was unmanageable, too much for owner one and in spite of his
wonderful ability, was never well understood. Dog and owner number two were
still putting along, doing an average job and really hadn't changed much
over time. Dog number three progressed and excelled at everything he did
while his owner stood by him, gave him confidence and believed in him.>>

The moral of Bob's story was that some of the best teams out there are
people who develop a relationship and build a dog up with a strong
foundation. There is room in this story for the person who starts with an
amazing dog - what I have seen is that they "never get another dog as good"
and blame every other dog that comes along for faults, when it could be
their own weakness as a trainer that is now exposed.

Story by Bob Vest, a herding clinician

This story totally stikes home with me. I've seen it many times, and so have you all.....if you look with an open mind and heart.

Cliff Williams

Posted by hammer blz on 08-04-2009 03:56 AM:

put them hounds in the woods thats the best training you can get if its in them it will come out of them without a drag and cage coon well they have to have since to but thats another thing to....

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Posted by Justin Smith on 08-04-2009 04:06 AM:

Athletes that compete in sports need more than talent to beat the other pro's in their league .. they can't do it alone.

This is logic , fact and real .... there is no reason that the coondog world would adhere to laws of physics from a parallel universe where logic doesn't exist.

There are plenty of talented , well bred coondogs ... when they meet ... it's the training and preperation of the handlers that seperates them.

Posted by kurt benson on 08-04-2009 05:57 AM:

coonhounds where put on the face of the earth for onething....it is born into them....its there ingrained in it's DNA.....you just expose them to it to bring it out

Posted by honalieh on 08-04-2009 05:59 AM:

Can you actually train a coondog?

What is your profession? Trucker? Teacher? Lawyer? Doctor? Farmer? Welder? Police Officer?

Were you naturally born for these jobs? Or, were you trained for them?

Not all dogs have the talent and natural abilities to become coon dogs, but the ones that do require training to develop those abilities.

Not all people have the talent and natural abilities to become doctors, but the ones that do require training to develop those abilities.

How many would go to a natural born doctor. No training required. Just expose him to sicknesses and diseases, and let his natural talent come out!!! NOT ME!!! I want my doctor to be well trained.

Dogs are not superior to people. They also require training to do their jobs well!!! Talent is only part of the equation!!!

Posted by lightning1 on 08-04-2009 06:52 AM:

Re: Can you actually train a coondog?

quote:

Dogs are not superior to people. They also require training to do their jobs well!!! Talent is only part of the equation!!! [/B]

This is true but some dogs are just born to be track and tree dogs without all the head aches. Just depends on how much time one wants to put into one that doesn't have the natural desire to hunt and tree. Some pack animals set on the outside waiting for the scrap. Just like some people waiting for a hand out rather than going after it.

Posted by ringtail on 08-04-2009 07:34 AM:

yes we can, yes we can....

oops, wrong thread.....

i meant to say "yes u can"..... if a dog has natural ability, training will be easier.. just expose him and give plenty of praise 4 good and spank 4 bad......

if ur dog is lacking natural ability but has a strong prey drive u can still train him... it'll just take a LOT more time & patience (which is something we coonhunter don't have).....

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
...... you can expose them to good hunting conditions, you can give possitive reinforcment for good behavior and disipline for bad.....

john, not being a smart azz, but what do u think ur doing? in ur post u spelled out training (ur just not calling it training)....

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Posted by Randy Tallon on 08-04-2009 11:47 AM:

Cliff put it the best. The leash is an umbellical cord. As a team you "feed" each other. You let the dog know when you are happy that he did what he is supposed to and you let him know when he did something that you're not happy with. Can you "will" a dog to do something....??? In this sport the dog has to have the inherent traits. Some have them......some don't. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have them word "cull." We can hone and sharpen certain drives and traits,mostly with time in the woods and a little guidance., but, if they're not there.....

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