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nextcoonhunters
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2015
Location: mo
Posts: 749

DNA verses area

Okay the get gone go for miles type hounds or the stay busy hunt the area out hound. How much is in there DNA and how much is in the area they were trained in? Let's talk about 2 to 3 year old hounds hunted and trained in the same area. Let's say at first in an area of thick coon. Most times within 500 yds they strike a track. So no need to go a mile most nights. Now a dog in thin coon may have to go a mile before they strike a track. So a dog trained in thin coon has to go father and probably fast than one in thick coon. Over the 2 years of training does this shape the dog or is it all DNA stamped in and doesn't matter how the coon population is because a hard going hound goes hard regardless? Let's talk most hounds and leave the duds and super dogs out.

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04-24-2020 02:32 AM

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5738

Dogs

Always have heard this "genetics deal the cards, but environment plays the hand". I think area definitely plays into the picture, but some are predisposed to act differently, that is to cast further than actually needed to find the game. Dave

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04-24-2020 03:40 AM

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2162

Re: Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Always have heard this "genetics deal the cards, but environment plays the hand". I think area definitely plays into the picture, but some are predisposed to act differently, that is to cast further than actually needed to find the game. Dave

Very Good Post!!!

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04-24-2020 06:40 AM

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 2014

These are hog dogs and not coon dogs but not much difference in outcomes...

I cast my dogs and they will range out quite a ways to strike a hog...

When roading my dogs they will take colder tracks...

A friend of my has the same type of dogs and his dogs hunt different than mine...his don�t range as far and they appear to be hotter nosed than mine...

The difference I believe is in hunting styles...my friend drives and doesn�t hunt with the dogs...the dogs try to keep up with him and they don�t take cold tracks or they get left behind...so they are looking for hotter tracks...

I hunt slow and if the dogs get interested in a scent I stop and encourage them to work it and if they try to work it out I wait until they line it out or come back...
When I cast my dogs I wait until they are gone before I move...

He dumps his dogs and heads out...

For me it�s about getting the most out of my dogs...always

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04-26-2020 03:03 AM

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wart
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 419

Dogs

I know a man who squirrel hunts and when getting his dogs ready for competition squirrel hunts roads hunts them miles a day on national Forest land he drives fairly fast so the wind hot squirrels only and tree them that's how he wants them to operate in competition hunts. He won't walk hunt much at all before hunting in competition he says the mess with colder game and he doesn't want that similar to Reubens friend with his hog dogs so the hunter himself has as much as DNA,area, does

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04-26-2020 03:35 AM

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Clovis A Nailor
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 246

I can tell you this I hear all kinds of things about the rat attack bloodline basically the crazy slick treeing stuff I would guess everyone has heard this before. But I have had several of them and not found this out at all. The ones I had open on track good and want to have the coon. I want rat attack in all my dogs up close as I can. Now is it how I train them or their dna. I believe Dave has said all that needs to be said because that's the truest statement I have seen.

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04-26-2020 09:33 AM

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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Clovis, I think it is a combination of things. Mainly a change in time. Rat Attack put a lot of tree into his pups. When they arrived on the scene the training of our hounds by the majority of people was different. They were so happy to finally have a tree dog. They were not corrected. Also from then until now the blood in the Rat Attack dogs has been watered down enough. You not getting the ice tea as strong as you did back then. Everyone talks about BALANCE. Over the years to find that balance, you usually started out with a line of hounds that were not balanced. Too much of one thing to too much of another. The hunters could put up with it even though they shouldn't. But some of the breeders understood the strengths of their breeding stock along with the weakness in them. So they worked to balance things out. Those pups improved while others that were just breeding for pups and money did nothing to improve things.

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04-26-2020 12:57 PM

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

As long as they give $$$ for dead cast or circle slicks you will never have balance.

Tar

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04-26-2020 01:19 PM

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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Tar isn't that putting the blame on a situation for what you have on your leash. I take responsibility for what's on the end of my leash. I don't care what the rules are, I know what I expect from a dog. Generally those expectations are sound and can win every now and then. At least they can tree me a coon.
Tar, I know your smarter than that. You must be baiting me into a trap. LOL

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 04-27-2020 at 02:42 AM

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04-27-2020 02:39 AM

novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1566

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
As long as they give $$$ for dead cast or circle slicks you will never have balance.

Tar

I hear about all these casts that win with minus points. But I can tell you I'd like draw those casts. I haven't seen but a handful win with minus. Must be we have different type of dogs and hunting in NY and PA. But I can say I've seen less problems on casts in the other registry than I've seen on casts in UKC. Again must just be the area.

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04-27-2020 01:41 PM

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Tar isn't that putting the blame on a situation for what you have on your leash. I take responsibility for what's on the end of my leash. I don't care what the rules are, I know what I expect from a dog. Generally those expectations are sound and can win every now and then. At least they can tree me a coon.
Tar, I know your smarter than that. You must be baiting me into a trap. LOL

Maybe they are just more honest in the $$$ hunts lol. Seems like when they got to have plus points and stay treed to win like in ukc they do. If they don�t have to have plus points and get circle slicks to win the same dog just can�t come up with a coon but still gets paid.

I been in this game along time believe me especially at the local level there has been a ton of money won without plus points. I don�t hunt in the hunts anymore much but treeing coons really ain�t that hard but there are dogs that will get struck and treed where there ain�t been a coon in forever and their handlers know it and they will take the win and laugh about it.

Bruce just had a pro hunt a couple months back that there wasent a plus point the whole hunt I know you seen it.

Tar

Last edited by yadkintar on 04-27-2020 at 02:07 PM

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04-27-2020 02:05 PM

Roy Grant
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 1520

I am REALLY old school. I agree with Tar, but, I question in a money hunt if there is no plus points no winners. What happens to the money????

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04-27-2020 02:38 PM

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:
Originally posted by Roy Grant
I am REALLY old school. I agree with Tar, but, I question in a money hunt if there is no plus points no winners. What happens to the money????

Roy in ukc in the slam hunts you got to have plus points. Buuuuuuuut here is the part I like say you have 4 cast all but one are dead that one guy gets the whole pot. If all cast are dead let�s say 8 dogs they split the winners portion 8 ways which will come out less than the entry they paid.

In the $$$ hunts whom ever does the best or in some cases the least worse gets the cast win winnings always have a winner.

Tar

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04-27-2020 02:46 PM

nextcoonhunters
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2015
Location: mo
Posts: 749

Off topic somehow

Well tar got us off topic somehow. But to get back on topic and table the no coon and win topic for another thread, if DNA deals the hand and training plays it. What traits can not be manipulated by environment, or is there any?

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04-28-2020 12:56 AM

yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Oops but to much tree you might can help it a little but what I meant was it�s more accepted nowadays.

Tar

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04-28-2020 01:00 AM

Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 2014

Re: Off topic somehow

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Well tar got us off topic somehow. But to get back on topic and table the no coon and win topic for another thread, if DNA deals the hand and training plays it. What traits can not be manipulated by environment, or is there any?

Genetics makes a dachshund a dachshund and a greyhound a greyhound...

I am very rich and will set out to prove I can beat the greyhounds at the race track with a well bred dachshund, and with hiring the best dog racing trainer that money can buy and feeding the best diet possible for a racing dog...

All the money in the world cannot create the environment where the dachshund can outrun the average greyhound...

Genetically the dachshund is not built for speed...

Common sense will tell us if we should invest time and money on a certain dog or not...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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04-28-2020 03:10 AM

Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5738

Rueben

Loved your post, but common sense don't seem to be very common these days. Some don't care just as long as they can sell the pups. Dave

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04-28-2020 03:57 AM

Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 791

Re: DNA verses area

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Okay the get gone go for miles type hounds or the stay busy hunt the area out hound. How much is in there DNA and how much is in the area they were trained in? Let's talk about 2 to 3 year old hounds hunted and trained in the same area. Let's say at first in an area of thick coon. Most times within 500 yds they strike a track. So no need to go a mile most nights. Now a dog in thin coon may have to go a mile before they strike a track. So a dog trained in thin coon has to go father and probably fast than one in thick coon. Over the 2 years of training does this shape the dog or is it all DNA stamped in and doesn't matter how the coon population is because a hard going hound goes hard regardless? Let's talk most hounds and leave the duds and super dogs out.

At 2-3 years with 1000 hours of woods time, most dogs are just starting to balance being motivated by getting game verses motivated with their desire to please the handler.
What motivates the dog? When cast if its focus is treeing the first coon as quick as possible then the distance needed does not matter. If when cast its # 1 focus is not treeing a coon but being alone then coon population is not a factor, as they will do whatever it takes to be alone which often is ignoring a red hot coon.
Add in the fear factor from MR. PROTRAINER with electronics simulation in his hand, who can tell by looking at the screen exactly what the hound is THINKING and it is impossible to answer your question!

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04-28-2020 04:34 AM

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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1566

Re: DNA verses area

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Okay the get gone go for miles type hounds or the stay busy hunt the area out hound. How much is in there DNA and how much is in the area they were trained in? Let's talk about 2 to 3 year old hounds hunted and trained in the same area. Let's say at first in an area of thick coon. Most times within 500 yds they strike a track. So no need to go a mile most nights. Now a dog in thin coon may have to go a mile before they strike a track. So a dog trained in thin coon has to go father and probably fast than one in thick coon. Over the 2 years of training does this shape the dog or is it all DNA stamped in and doesn't matter how the coon population is because a hard going hound goes hard regardless? Let's talk most hounds and leave the duds and super dogs out.

Training does play a big part into how a dog operates. I'd say if both types were trained by the same person you'll have different results but there will be similarities in both. Both will probably operate according to coon population. But 1 dog might prefer hotter tracks. The other will take tracks as they come. Both tree coons and both can look great on certain nights and horrible on other nights. You can take a colder nosed dog and make it tree hotter tracks but not the other way around. And you can take an open trailing dog and make it silent but you can't take a naturally silent dog and make it a wide open trailer. It's a whole lot easier to tighten a big hunter up then to get 1 to go hunting.

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04-28-2020 02:32 PM

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