Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Hanover,VA
Posts: 401

At a recent UKC event at my home club, we had 4 youth(ages 11-14) that were entering the hunt. The MOH separated them out in a "Youth Cast" with a non hunting judge. Apparently, this is not legal and UKC sent a letter to let us know the cast winner(my son) and his dog were not awarded championship points. Rules are rules and I accept that it's my fault for not checking before we went through with the hunt.
It did getting me thinking about why there isn't a rule to allow a "Youth Cast". Can anyone think of a good reason not to propose this as a rule change? We can have senior cast which promotes the older generation to stay in the game. Why not do the same to get the youth in the game.
We do have youth hunts that we attend, but they are not nearly as regular as normal hunts. So we can have an entire hunt that is youth only and award championship points, but not a youth cast.
Clubs can also have a hunt where 1 registered and 1 nitech dog show up. They both hunt alone with an opportunity to win and receive championship points yet the winner of a 4 dog youth cast in a 23 dog event get nothing.

As stated before, my fault for not confirming the rules. It just doesn't make sense.

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Registered: Oct 2010
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Sounds like a rule needs to be changed to be just like a senior cast , I see no problem in doing that but rules are rules

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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: S.E. IOWA
Posts: 371

We have non sanctioned youth casts at our hunts for the youth to try to get their feet wet and have good success with them, but I do not think ch pts should be awarded . We give them a nice plaque and when it is time to move up to start titling their dog most will. The problem with awarding ch pts is it never fails old so and so will get a kid to handle a dog for him to get a easy title. jmo Give them a plaque ,trophy but when the time comes to move up and worry about titles then move up and let the new kids get their feet wet also.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
Posts: 1823

quote:

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Originally posted by morgan branch
We have non sanctioned youth casts at our hunts for the youth to try to get their feet wet and have good success with them, but I do not think ch pts should be awarded . We give them a nice plaque and when it is time to move up to start titling their dog most will. The problem with awarding ch pts is it never fails old so and so will get a kid to handle a dog for him to get a easy title. jmo Give them a plaque ,trophy but when the time comes to move up and worry about titles then move up and let the new kids get their feet wet also.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Glenwood, Ark
Posts: 207

Hmmm, well one way to look at is, seems to be a good problem. If you got kids hunting, we need to figure out how to keep them hunting. Maybe the club could run a youth race all year. Keep record of the scores of each hunt and give the highest combined score at the end of the year a new light or new boots. Have a record slip on the wall for them to put their score on at the end of each hunt and have club director initial the score. Just a thought. I personally like the idea of a youth cast but as said before, you sill have the 17 year old handling for Old Joe. Maybe if the dog was registered in the kids name meaning the kid owned the dog, it might help keep Old Joe at bay. And might get more kids wanting dogs. Nothing like winning with your own stuff. Just some thoughts.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
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quote:

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Originally posted by fatherof4
Hmmm, well one way to look at is, seems to be a good problem. If you got kids hunting, we need to figure out how to keep them hunting. Maybe the club could run a youth race all year. Keep record of the scores of each hunt and give the highest combined score at the end of the year a new light or new boots. Have a record slip on the wall for them to put their score on at the end of each hunt and have club director initial the score. Just a thought. I personally like the idea of a youth cast but as said before, you sill have the 17 year old handling for Old Joe. Maybe if the dog was registered in the kids name meaning the kid owned the dog, it might help keep Old Joe at bay. And might get more kids wanting dogs. Nothing like winning with your own stuff. Just some thoughts.

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Alliance Ohio
Posts: 493

Sounds like you guys that commented don't want a 12 yr old to go against a 17 yr old but way it is now that 12 yr old hunts against the 30 yr old pro handler

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
Posts: 1823

Instead of you guys you mean ukc, right?

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Alliance Ohio
Posts: 493

Way I read your comments it seems like you endorse ukc's messed up policy. Its hard to go to a hunt and draw out with honest guys anymore. Definantly not going submit a kid to it.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Glenwood, Ark
Posts: 207

Or could it be we would like to see the kids be able to hunt against each other in a youth cast? Is there any harm in that? I didn't see any sign of people going after kids in a bad way, in fact, I only sensed positivity in all this. What I seen was people thinking of kids. And you are right about the dishonesty in hunts these days, we can't stop that, but we can help, encourage and set good examples for the kids. They are only kids once, don't take that away from them. Not all kids are raised in the hunting world and when given the chance to go, they jump all over it, as they should. And then they get the chance to go to a hunt and some jackwagon is out for a win. Guess who gets hurt here, the kid. So any attempt in giving a kid a chance is a good attempt. Maybe you need to go back and read through those comments again.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am willing to bet that many would agree with me on this.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
Posts: 1823

I'm all for see kids getting involved, it makes my day. There are crooks but I guess I am lucky that I don't run into them very often. Maybe ukc could have a separate titling system for youth and seniors. Ygrntch or sgrntch, if the dogs were hunted completely with youth or senior casts? Just a thought. I really think every thing that can be done to get the youth involved in coonhunting should be done.

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Registered: May 2010
Location:
Posts: 1795

Mathew I'm sorry that your son's win that was won fair and square but it wasn't in UKC guidelines. I do agree with you about maybe having a youth cast in regular nite hunts . I also would like to see UKC listen more to their Mater of Hounds officals that represent them about some things that's happening that's not right and be given a little more power . But that's a different track I wont finish , so minus me .Lol

Take care my friend !

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5927

quote:

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Originally posted by Christophernidy
Sounds like you guys that commented don't want a 12 yr old to go against a 17 yr old but way it is now that 12 yr old hunts against the 30 yr old pro handler

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
Posts: 1823

quote:

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
And they are all for these seniors taking blind Bob and deaf Dan on out with them on senior casts and getting their points that way lol. I for one think youth casts are a great idea.

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

Redneck mafia, since I'm one of those seniors whose 65 years old and have had one bad heart attack losing 20% of one chamber of my heart and diabetic also maybe I can draw you in a hunt one day and we'll go through the woods at my pace, since the cast can go no faster than the slowest person on that cast and you're only able to make one drop, then you'll be crying I should have to hunt in a senior cast because I couldn't get through the woods fast enough to suit you. I guess if Blind Bob and Deaf Dan can beat you with the health problems they have maybe you need to get a better dog if you're worried about the old geezer cast.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5927

quote:

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Originally posted by J I Allen
Redneck mafia, since I'm one of those seniors whose 65 years old and have had one bad heart attack losing 20% of one chamber of my heart and diabetic also maybe I can draw you in a hunt one day and we'll go through the woods at my pace, since the cast can go no faster than the slowest person on that cast and you're only able to make one drop, then you'll be crying I should have to hunt in a senior cast because I couldn't get through the woods fast enough to suit you. I guess if Blind Bob and Deaf Dan can beat you with the health problems they have maybe you need to get a better dog if you're worried about the old geezer cast.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
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Chey needs a better dog huh? Wow !!!! I think he is sitting pretty good on dog power! Lol

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
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quote:

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Originally posted by rob thompson
Chey needs a better dog huh? Wow !!!! I think he is sitting pretty good on dog power! Lol

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Seneca , MO
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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

If you think the old geezers are cheating, maybe you need to suggest to the MOH to send a non-hunting judge with them or go as a spectator. If I thought some one was cheating that badly I'd make the suggestion for a non-hunting judge.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
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quote:

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Originally posted by J I Allen
If you think the old geezers are cheating, maybe you need to suggest to the MOH to send a non-hunting judge with them or go as a spectator. If I thought some one was cheating that badly I'd make the suggestion for a non-hunting judge.

---

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Hanover,VA
Posts: 401

Sounds like most of us agree that a youth cast would be a good option in the future. Our club is already talking about have non-sanctioned youth hunts to help the kids learn and give them some reward.
I understand that there will always be someone trying to use or abuse a rule that is intended to be a goo thing. However, a youth cast with a non-hunting judge "should" be as legit as you can get. I a regular cast kids may get taken advantage of or persuaded in the wrong direction. Even if I'm in the woods as a spectator, I can only help after the hunt.
I appreciate all of the responses. Hopefully, the ideas will be tossed around in the future.

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: Franklin County,Va
Posts: 1149

These all sound like great ideas and I would love to see some of them work out great. From my experience once you get one handler that has exceled and I mean he hunts all the time and he starts winning these hunt then he want to hunt with the older casts and gets in the hunt and gets his feeling hurt. Here are two things I seen of this, The youth cast is tired of him winning all the time even though he hunts 4-6 nights and week and they just want to hunt at the hunts and cant understand why there dog does what it does. So now you have upset the balance of both groups. How bout having buddy hunts and teaching the boy the rules. We all know we can read the book and advisor until we are in the situation it does not matter. I am all for and totally understand the rules however why is everyone so worried about scratching people instead of teaching them why and what happens. Who has ever been on the cast and a handler does something stupid like squall or there spectator shines or someone shines before the judge says go. Why not take that time to warn them and explain to them the rules and why they are there. From what I have seen of most hunts it is because the judge doesn't really know he just know that he got a win taken away from him that way so he is going to do it to someone else. From the looks of this thread and other seems like everyone wants to help the youth and get them along and keep the sport of coon hunting alive however until as adult we can have a hunt without someone getting played on the rules how can we expect our youth to not do the same.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: West Kill, NY
Posts: 2047

the main problem I see with what you propose is that your MOH separated the kids out on his own initiative. If you're on a senior cast it's because you asked to be. Plenty of people old enough for a senior cast prefer to hunt with everyone else, and if they don't have a heart condition or bad knees, or some other problem they often do. If a kid knows all the rules and wants to hunt with the adults, he or she should be able to if that's what he or she prefers. Very few kids are ready to push the rules the way some of us geezers do. I don't imagine a lot of 16 year olds with decent dogs asking to hunt against little kids just because its an easy win. Kids generally want to be in the big leagues if they have a chance.

You had an unusual situation there. These days when so few are turning out for local club hunts, there aren't many times and places where you can put together a youth cast from the entries. I know our club has some hunts where there are only enough entries for one or two casts altogether. I don't see any reason we shouldn't be allowed to have a youth cast if we are able, but a kid shouldn't be forced to hunt against just other kids if he or she thinks he or she is able to win against the adults and wants to. That wouldn't be much fun for the kid involved.

A few years back, there was an incident at National Redbone days where a little girl and her dog on a youth cast came back with way more plus points than anyone in the regular or senior casts. At first, the officials didn't want to give her the overall hunt win and we had to vote on it the next day. We voted to give it to her. There were a few sore losers in the adult casts but we were for the most part pretty proud to give the win to her. She was pretty young--maybe 11 or 12 at the time and she had a nice dog at the end of her lead. We should be encouraging kids like her to get involved and stay involved.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9280

First, UKC is ALL about the youth and getting them involved in the sport. I don't think anyone thinks otherwise. The number of UKC Youth Only events available to them is leaps and bounds above any other registry. Hopefully, that alone will speak volumes when it comes to UKC promoting youth in the sport.

Hopefully, I can shed a little light on why it is that we haven't allowed for youth handlers to be drawn out with each other at regular events.

In UKC youth hunts are separated by age divisions... 5-12 and 13-17. And their dogs are all drawn out together regardless of the degree on the dog. This is why the other registries can allow youth handlers to be drawn out together because they don't split dogs, or have separate classes, based on degrees.

UKC also requires its youth hunts to have non-hunting judges. Some of the older kids could probably handle serving as hunting judges while some of the younger ones could not. In other words, it would require clubs to come up with some non-hunting judges.

The biggest issue is youth handlers handling dogs in different categories. Let's say Joe, Johnny, and Jerry are hunting registered dogs and Sammy is hunting a Nite Champion. So if you allowed youth to be drawn out together so long as there are a minimum of three (in the category) as UKC requires for Veteran casts, then it's no problem for Joe, Johnny and Jerry. But how about Sammy; it wouldn't be fair to him would it that he has to hunt against the "men"? I'm positive that if we allowed Sammy to hunt alone then the other Nite Champion competitors would raise a flag and claim that to be an un-level playing field, when it comes to a one-dog cast competing against four-dog casts etc.. Or what if Jerry is hunting a Nite Champion? Now you have the registered and Nite Champion divisions both competing against two-dog casts?

I'll leave it at that and hopefully it will shed a little more light as to why UKC has not allowed youth handlers to be "assigned" to hunt together.

Last edited by Allen / UKC on 04-03-2017 at 05:13 PM

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9280

..... on this topic. All clubs are allowed a YEP licensed youth only event at their club each year. UKC waives all license and recording fees for all youth events. Plus, UKC does not include youth events in their seven events allowed each year.

Last I checked UKC had over 200 licensed youth events each year. Nevertheless, we'll add more for any clubs wanting to get on board and host one. Thanks to all those clubs across the country already doing this. Much appreciated and the kids love them!

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