Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Central Pa
Posts: 1114

This has been batted back and forth on several threads lately, so rather than muck up those threads with a different question, I'll post it here.

I understand counting den trees against the number of coon seen. That's obvious. However I don't understand the concept of counting legitimate den trees against a dogs accuracy. Slick treeing is inaccuracy. A trail ending with a tree with no coon in it, and there never was. A dog lying, whatever you want to call it. It's not where the trail ended, and in some cases it's not even where the trail temporarily stopped.

A legitimate den tree at the end of a good track is just that. Why would you doubt the accuracy of an otherwise good dog when a trail ends at a tree with a hole rubbed as smooth as a sanded board? There are times of the year here that you will start picking up some den trees even if you're following the best dog you've ever walked behind that always has the coon.

A December full moon can be notorious for this here. It's usually cold, the good feed is mostly used up, and the coon are not rutting yet. They don't feel like moving and seem to spend their time close to dens. An accurate silent dog can pick up a few den trees and a accurate blabbermouth might put together a string of them.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Menominee, Nebraska
Posts: 875

I don't think a den tree should count against a dog when you're talking accuracy. Around here we have tons of cottonwoods that are almost a 100 years old and full of knotholes, splits, and every other type of opening. Most of which are known dens because you can find a dozen coon in it, or the dogs tree and you see nothing, but you know they are in there.

Now if a tree is absolutely slick, then the dog needs a quick adjustment and sent off to find something.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

There are only two kinds of trees, the ones where you see a coon and the ones where you don't. If you see a coon in the tree, you KNOW the dog ended it right. If you don't see a coon, all that's left is questions. I'm sure some slicks had a coon that just wasn't seen, and for sure a bunch of dens were just that slick. The thing is, you don't know! When you see that coon, you know!
The only way to count trees that really makes sense is coon seen/ not seen. Slicks/dens is just something to take up space on a discussion board.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Menominee, Nebraska
Posts: 875

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
There are only two kinds of trees, the ones where you see a coon and the ones where you don't. If you see a coon in the tree, you KNOW the dog ended it right. If you don't see a coon, all that's left is questions. I'm sure some slicks had a coon that just wasn't seen, and for sure a bunch of dens were just that slick. The thing is, you don't know! When you see that coon, you know!
The only way to count trees that really makes sense is coon seen/ not seen. Slicks/dens is just something to take up space on a discussion board.

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Last edited by michael.magorian on 10-14-2016 at 04:18 PM

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1186

50 years ago when I weighed 120 lbs, I climbed to every hole I could get to. A vast majority had a coon. Now we had a different kind of dog back then (Always looking for one that would tree) but I still give my dog the benefit of the doubt when it's a den. Especially on a hard running track. Most of those coon are going home. Just my 2 cents worth. I just pleasure hunt.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

I give mine that benefit as well so long as I can see a hole the size of a baseball. Funny thing about using that fresh snow scenario to determine. Even that is not fool proof. Many years ago my Dad had the coldest nosed dog I have ever followed. Now she was NOT fast by any means on a cold track, but she would consistently start tracks and work them for 15 to 20 minutes (sometimes longer) before any other dog would open with her.

One night we were hunting in the snow, she struck a track and trailed maybe 100 yards or so and came treed. None of our other dogs opened on the track or treed on the tree. We went to her, I went around that tree a couple times looking for tracks as to what she might have been trailing. I found NO TRACKS in the snow, so if they were there I missed them.
I told my dad I was climbing that tree to look down in that hole, and when I did, (sure enough) there set a danged ole coon looking back up at me. Craziest thing I ever saw. I have no explanation for how she did what she did, but I seen it with my own eyes. There ARE coons in den trees folks, I seen them myself, LOL. TRUE STORY!!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14388

I've saw some quick slick treeing dogs make tons of dens. Ain't no coon in there. This subject came up while hunting last night cause my dog treed a squirrel and I never found coon but he's as accurate as they come here. I've hunted with several more high well above average accurate hounds. One thing they all had in common was they made very very very few dens trees throughout the yr,moonphase,wind direction or anything like that.

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Michael Ghorley

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Winchester,Tenn.
Posts: 187

That has been my time in the woods. Very few den trees year round. Most all den trees the coon was on the outside. That is , with a real accurate dog.

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 1775

Dog A makes 100 trees, 65 coon seen, 15 den trees, 20 trees either leafy or slick.

Dog B makes 100 trees, 50 coon seen, 30 den trees, 20 trees either leafy or slick.

For the folks with the den tree equals a coon seen mindset, Dogs A & B have equal (80%) accuracy. Now, you tell me, which dog is really more accurate & what is the determining factor?

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: airville pa
Posts: 586

I don't competition hunt much. My dog make very few slick trees because he locates, checks it, then locks down or moves it on. I like it that way because I don't like walking to slicks.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Central Pa
Posts: 1114

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe W. Smith
That has been my time in the woods. Very few den trees year round. Most all den trees the coon was on the outside. That is , with a real accurate dog.

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Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured… but not everyone must prove they are a citizen. Now add this: Many of those who refuse, or are unable, to prove they are citizens will receive free insurance paid for by those who are forced to buy insurance because they are citizens.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Central Pa
Posts: 1114

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe W. Smith
That has been my time in the woods. Very few den trees year round. Most all den trees the coon was on the outside. That is , with a real accurate dog.

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Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured… but not everyone must prove they are a citizen. Now add this: Many of those who refuse, or are unable, to prove they are citizens will receive free insurance paid for by those who are forced to buy insurance because they are citizens.

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: kenton,ohio
Posts: 184

Back in the early 80s when coon was worth more and me and my buddy was younger during coon season , when our dogs treed on dens we climbed up and got the coons out of them and at times there was 2 to 5 coon in there and they sure wasn't slick , so when our dogs was on a den a coon was in there and also if they got in a hole in the ground the coon was there most time 2 coon in a hole and that was in the freezing cold and snow . We would let the dogs dig them out , so yes to me dens count with my dogs accuracy ... And this isn't b.s.

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Registered: Dec 2015
Location: central p.a
Posts: 16

I think it has to do with guys already knowing what's on the end of the leash . if its a dog that runs the track backwards now n then , they count it as no coon . specaily when the track just keeps getting weaker as it goes. But when you know your dogs accurate ...well that changes everything. Just my 2 cents.

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Registered: Feb 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4545

quote:

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Originally posted by furflyinjim
I think it has to do with guys already knowing what's on the end of the leash . if its a dog that runs the track backwards now n then , they count it as no coon . specaily when the track just keeps getting weaker as it goes. But when you know your dogs accurate ...well that changes everything. Just my 2 cents.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location:
Posts: 856

I think it depends on the dog whether you should count dens against their accuracy or not.
If you have a dog that trees coons, but makes lots of known obvious slick trees too, then the actual dens may need to count against that dog just like the slicks.
On the other hand, if you have a dog that trees lots of coons, a few dens here and there, and maybe an occasional rare slick, then his dens might not need to count against him.
I usually just count the dens 50/50 if I am trying to determine my dog's actual "number" accuracy, half he gets credit for the other half treated as a slick!

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2760

If you know your dog, you can be pretty sure when he has meat in the den or a slick hole. If he very seldom trees slick on the outside, chances are he is seldom slick on a den.

I hunted a English dog several years ago (I didn't own him) but he was the most accurate dog I have ever seen. He was pretty tight mouthed on the ground and always had a coon in the tree. I only remember him treeing in one den tree and the coon was setting there peeping out at us. If I hadn't seen the coon looking out of the hole, I would've still bet money he was there.

I've had a few counterfeit excuses for a dog that treed in dens all the time that I knew were empty.

Like I said if you know your dog you can be fairly sure (not 100% sure) but fairly sure if the hole is empty or not.

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location:
Posts: 201

My last walker was pretty accurate. I have the data to prove it. I felt pretty confidently whether the coon was there or not just by how he behaved and how easy he was to pull off the tree.

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Registered: Apr 2006
Location: Utica, Ohio
Posts: 1023

Had an old timer tell me here recently and it really made alot of sense the more i thought about it. A dog that makes alot of den trees is usually a dog that doesnt have a very good nose and cant run a track and if most people knew what was really in them so called den trees there opinion on there dog may change

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