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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

What are the 3 most important areas we can improve in competition redbones?

I think the redbone breed is improving in some ways...but we still have more room to improve and plenty of lost ground to make up if we want to see more redbones winning top level hunts.
So where are we still coming up short?
If your not a competition hunters who has been there many times and witnessed first hand how and why redbones get out dogged in upper level hunts where the quality of hound is well above average...then please don't just guess.
I'm looking for opinions from people who have been there and done that. Maybe you won some....if so tell us honestly what gave your dog the edge.
I think all of us have lost some...probably way more than we have won if we are talking about upper level competition hunts....so be honest and tell us what your dog lacked or why another breed of dog was able to best your redbone.
Of course sometimes it's just bad luck...but if you hunt a lot of casts...every handler will see where their dog lacks in certain areas and where other dogs or even other breeds seem to have more ability in certain areas...so what are the particulars?
We as a breed can't solve a problem unless we first admit there is one. Then we have to come up with a solution...and when it comes to breeding...those can take several years and generations to solve once you pick your targets and set your goals.
Are we actually doing that yet? Are we really seeing and admitting what areas that this breed needs improved upon to make better competition dogs...and are redbone breeders actually making the changes needed to produce dogs that show continued improvement in those key areas?
Are all breeders of competition redbones using the same measuring stick and striving to produce redbones that can someday be the measuring stick for other breeds?
I'd like to know how others feel. Are we on the right track, are we doing everything we can to produce winners...or are most breeders talking a lot...but still breeding the same way they always have and for the same reasons?

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Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
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My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
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Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
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Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
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Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-30-2016 at 05:56 PM

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03-30-2016 05:54 PM

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roger wickerham
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2013
Location: michigan
Posts: 416

i am not a bigg time comp hunter and i have not been in it all my life but i do hunt a red bone in comp. at least twice a month and i think its hard to find a loud , fast ,and confidence but i do think we have brains ,track,hunt for you,hunt a woods before heading to the next and so on

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03-31-2016 01:54 AM

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jerhovt
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Southern Vermont
Posts: 311

Ive noticed one thing confidence and speed locking down on a tree that seems to be where the walkers beat me the most not that I hunt alot of big hunts but Ive hunted a few.
Also a little quicker to strike in but Ive seen a few that already are quick to strike in so I guess the tree thing is all I can really come up with. This is just my opinion I could be way off

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03-31-2016 03:59 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Three things that sometimes beat me ( and most other redbones) in top level competition...
Not quick enough on strike
Not enough hard going fast hunting drive
Too honest / sometimes won't lock it down good if not sure coon is there
Three things that I see that help my redbones ( and other redbones) win...
Accuracy....having the coons when others don't.
Independence.... not just following the pack and getting a piece of slick trees
Coon sense... take their tracks as they come. Can trail one up and have it or wind them and tree lay ups and have them.
More mouth would be a plus for some lines.
More nose and ability to work out colder tracks without bogging down would help some lines.
More drive and competitiveness is probably what most walkers have that most redbones dont...but they wish they had our accuracy!
Accuracy is one thing we cannot afford to lose. When it comes down to the final cast of a big hunt....accuracy and the least mistakes will usually win more than anything else...assuming all the dogs are out there trying to find a coon.

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03-31-2016 06:42 PM

Tony Dominguez
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Jefferson,Tx
Posts: 1108

What I've seen we lack is HEART, most of them anyways. I don't care if a dog has all 4 legs cut off if you cut it loose it should crawl to go huntin. A dog with a big heart will give you 100% regardless of the situation, the rest id say most of the redbones have a lot of good in...

If a tight mouth dog is husling a whole 2 hours then more times then not they won't get beat on strike that I've seen. It happens but not a lot

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03-31-2016 07:15 PM

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jkhutch
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

3 things I see to improve

#1- Speed Between Trees/ Ability to find a coon fast.
I was in a cast a couple of weeks ago and this is a big hole I see in most redbones I have hunted with. I have only ever hunted with a couple of redbones with this type speed. I witnessed one of those Tricolors tree 3 coons in 14.5 minutes, and they were not easy or close ones. Tree #1- at .70 miles in 6.5 minutes, walked minute and recut, Tree #2- 400 yards in 3.5 minutes, walked a minute and recut Tree #3- .5 miles in 4.5 minutes on a one hour hunt. This happens quite often from what I have seen. That is tuff to beat!!

#2-Ability to hunt no matter whats going on around them.Dont let little things bother them. HEART.

#3- Natural Independant and confidence. Doesnt care about other dogs just has the will power to find a coon on its own ability no matter the conditions.

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03-31-2016 09:22 PM

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jerhovt
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Southern Vermont
Posts: 311

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw

Too honest / sometimes won't lock it down good if not sure coon is there

That Is what I meant by speed/confidence locking on the tree you worded it better!

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03-31-2016 10:33 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

This is a double edged sword...
Too quick and they may miss more than I like...not quick enough and you may lose tree points. Usually gets better with age but I like a one bark tree dog who checks before they lock down.

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03-31-2016 11:44 PM

roger wickerham
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2013
Location: michigan
Posts: 416

they dont have like buttons on here Shane but that is what i think also

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04-01-2016 01:08 AM

jerhovt
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Southern Vermont
Posts: 311

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
This is a double edged sword...
Too quick and they may miss more than I like...not quick enough and you may lose tree points. Usually gets better with age but I like a one bark tree dog who checks before they lock down.

That is the biggest issue I have had Is the Locating before they check so they get beat in the final seconds because I cant always call them on the locate I have noticed if you hunt them HARD ALONE they learn to speed it up.
"It is a double edged sword" I couldnt agree more it is not worth losing the accuracy but I think it can improve some with out losing the accuracy but trying to do this is like walking on thin ice one wrong step and your sunk. Empty trees make me irritated more than any other thing.

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04-01-2016 03:35 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

I think checking a tree good before locking down is more of a phase that accurate dogs go through. It is one of most dogs work through as they develop and while accuracy is a bred in trait. I think many times this particular thing is a learned thing that gets better with age and confidence.
What I mean is....if a dog wants to be accurate because it's been bred into it ....the dog is naturally going to want to be sure it has the right tree with the coon in it, so once the dog figures out that sometimes coons go up one tree and sometimes come down a leaner or vine or what have you...they start to circle around after locating and try to make sure the coon hasn't come down nearby and went on.
When a young dog who is well started and has always been a lock down tree dog starts to do this many people think they have backslid on them ....but really it's just learning something new. This is one of the longer stages that a dog will go through but one of the most important to properly handle to ensure the dog remains accurate the rest of its life. If ever there was a time to hunt a dog completely alone during its training it is during this stage. It is imperative that the dog figure this part out by itself and not be rushed by the trainer or influenced by other dogs. I would not hunt one during this stage in competition or with any other dogs pleasure hunting until they have shown a lot of progress and built up their confidence and shown that they can check and discover when coons come down nearby and go on and they can continue that track on and have the coons.
When I am hunting through the week I routinely make trees with young dogs where a coon is not seen but a tree has fell into the tree they are on or there is a branch going to the ground out a ways from the tree or a similar situation....and I always walk the dog over to that spot and release it to try and continue the track on. If they go back on the tree I scold them a little and try it again until they hopefully pick the track up and tree that coon.
I have found over the years that if I do this right...at the right point in a dog's training....down the road it will pay off big in competition when those tree monsters who don't check a tree good and hang up on one like this...my dog will check it and find the track and be split treed with the meat deeper while the others are pounding the leaves off of a slick tree the coon tapped on his way through.
I have won many many casts like this and it usually impresses the other handlers when they see it happen.
But if the trainer doesn't know what is going on when a young dog stops locking down tight on a tree and seems to get loose and wants to go on when they are first learning to check trees... it can be tough for most to watch...and frustrating...and a lot of good prospects get sold at this stage because the trainer thinks they have went backwards.
If you want to be an effective trainer,
You have to know the stages...and what's normal and what you can do as a trainer to best allow the dog to learn and what the normal pace should be for a dog to learn and figure it out. This is one of the longer learning stages and can take several months with some dogs....but it can take much longer or even prove impossible if the trainer does not do it properly by hunting the dog completely alone while it's going through it.

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 04-01-2016 at 06:45 PM

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04-01-2016 06:38 PM

jkhutch
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

If they are by themselves then that quick to tree becomes less important. Most of the time in a hunt around here dogs are not on the same tree anyways.

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04-01-2016 07:35 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by jkhutch
If they are by themselves then that quick to tree becomes less important.

That is the reason so many people are looking for and breeding for independant dogs now. As most know, there is a very fine line between quick and accurate. And it is very hard to breed for quickness and accuracy. So you breed for independance and accuracy and it doesn't matter how quick they are. But then you run into the problem of dogs that get treed with a coon out of pocket or out of hearing. How many times nowadays do you hear, "my dog treed a coon on time out"? Super independance usually only works in thick coons and flat land. And you end up with low scores/cast wins only. It works in cast win and advance type hunts much better than high score wins type hunts. There is a con for every pro so be careful what you ask for.

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04-02-2016 04:02 PM

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DCorbin
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Registered: Jan 2014
Location: Northern country
Posts: 243

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
[B]I think checking a tree good before locking down is more of a phase that accurate dogs go through. It is one of most dogs work through as they develop and while accuracy is a bred in trait. I think many times this particular thing is a learned thing that gets better with age and confidence.
What I mean is....if a dog wants to be accurate because it's been bred into it ....the dog is naturally going to want to be sure it has the right tree with the coon in it, so once the dog figures out that sometimes coons go up one tree and sometimes come down a leaner or vine or what have you...they start to circle around after locating and try to make sure the coon hasn't come down nearby and went on....'

Exactly what I love about huntin the redbone I got shane, those walkers get tree happy pullin up short, and he checks them and moves on deeper with the real live coon, I love seein their faces when the redbone checks their tree and gets deeper with his own

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04-02-2016 05:11 PM