Registered: Dec 2010
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I noticed a thread on here awhile back in this subject and would like some advice. First I've done alot of research on this subject and come to find out its really a imperfect science, however it has proven to be a great tool for people that have a clue on what there doing. You can take 2 coondawgs breed them together from 2 different lines,and even though they might be similar in style, the gene pool is wide open and traits just get mismatched. I could give examples but I will spare you. Now there is a difference in inbreeding and line breeding. I know a squirrel hunter that has won the world hunt 9 times. 5 times with the same dog. He said he never owned one as nice as him, but he said the best one he owned closest to him was a female that was a father to daughter cross. He breed the best female he produced back to him and it was a great cross and he won the world hunt twice with a female off that litter. Several breeders have told me that some of the best hounds they owned were off inbreed crosses but the problem was you couldn't give the puppies away. Now not saying at all breed for papers just traits. Now I've never had much in my life to breed I've had hounds that treed coons but nothing truly suited me until now. So from breeders that have done this alot here is a question. What seem to work better? If you had 2 hounds from the same tight gene pool with identical styles what worked better? What was the good and the bad about it? In other words where is the outcome more predictable? Half brother and sister. FATHER to daughter. Uncle to Neice which I guess would be more line breeding.

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uncle back to a niece is line breeding , most breeders will tell you half brother , sister cross is line breeding , father back to daughter or mother back to son is inbreeding , the bad of it will come out more when you cross full siblings , the one thing you left out of your thread is all the culling that is done with tight or inbred crosses and they are a lot that gets culled and for the 1 or 2 great dogs that some breeder got he may of culled 50 or more before he got the first one , if you do it right you need to keep the whole litter and grade them and then start culling and you have to be die hard to inbreed dogs because you no what you have before you ..

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr taylor
uncle back to a niece is line breeding , most breeders will tell you half brother , sister cross is line breeding , father back to daughter or mother back to son is inbreeding , the bad of it will come out more when you cross full siblings , the one thing you left out of your thread is all the culling that is done with tight or inbred crosses and they are a lot that gets culled and for the 1 or 2 great dogs that some breeder got he may of culled 50 or more before he got the first one , if you do it right you need to keep the whole litter and grade them and then start culling and you have to be die hard to inbreed dogs because you no what you have before you ..

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Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Mi.
Posts: 1954

Grand father/mother back to Grand daughter/son
or Uncle/Aunt to Niece/Nephew is as tight as I'd go.

Hub's Homer is off a accidental Mother to Son{Queen x Skuna River Fred}
One of the few inbred "nice" hounds I know.Nice to know how many actually turned out besides Homer?

Read article on Facebook that White Tigers are NOT a indangered species at all.There from inbreeding to get white gene to show.
Had pics of several deformed offspring from it that didn't get culled.Most don't live 1/2 of their normal life.If i can find it I'll post it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&...R34tLcQaziMywzw

Last edited by 4play on 01-15-2016 at 07:27 PM

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: mississippi
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walker hounds for over 30 years and Have done it all. Inbred and line bred. I would take his advice and I did cull hard when making those inbred crosses. Line breeding is the way to go. I would also throw in cousins as well. that worked well for me too. Those two examples he gave was the best I had and if you look at some very nice bred reproducing hounds that were line bred, they were bred like that.
Mud Run Milo who everyone that owns one will tell you he was a heck of a reproducer , his mom was a product of uncle neice cross.

There will be an exception to every rule,(Homer being one of those) but you will be more likely to put out a bad product that can multiply itself like cancer if it gets out in the breeding space. I see it when I look at pedigrees on here all the time. I can look at the pedigree and if you follow the cross a year late which it is easy to do with this website, you see dogs over a year old that will not run and tree a coon and folks are running from the dogs like they are on fire. It is too late. Those other siblings are in the hands of others breeding them and the horror goes on.
A back yard breeder should not even attempt line breeding or inbreeding if they havent done their homework and/or you are not willing to cull very critically.

just my two cents worth.

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of a line bred hound, go to the stud page and look at an ad for 3M drifter...it says best linebred stud in the country.

Go over that pedigree with a fine tooth comb and you will see the absolutely best example of the perfect line bred hound. It took years to do it and he will throw coondog after coondog no matter what line of female you throw at him. That is how you put DNA into a hound that can overcome even a bad bred female or one that is less than a world beater and get way above average pups.

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Registered: Apr 2015
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Posts: 221

I've got 6 pups littermate cross. Alot of white on all of them a couple patch eyed pups in there as well. Pretty sure there will be a blue eyed pup in the mix. None of the grandparents were this way. But from what I've seen this comes from line breeding. But there are a few guys that are excited about them so will see what happens.

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One of those guys has been mixing up dogs for years. He seems to think if u get a good one out of it. U could breed it to anything and get good pups. Truth be known it starts with good handlers.

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Registered: Jan 2004
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Only way you can maintain a good line of dogs in my book.
Why are the House bred dogs still around and allot of the other old lines gone? cross bred them till they were no longer a line anymore.
We have an 8 month old litter out of Paulding Forest Bubba and his half sister that are turning out very nice, ask Jason Baldwin about his.

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Well no has done this much? Not talking about breeding full sibling. Uncle niece, half brother to sister, father to daughter. Lets say you breed 2 hounds almost identical in hunt , independence, accuracy , mouth ect. In other words they seem to have all the same characteristics. What were the results. Did you get the outcome you wanted?

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Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Mi.
Posts: 1954

quote:

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Originally posted by N Williams
Well no has done this much? Not talking about breeding full sibling. Uncle niece, half brother to sister, father to daughter. Lets say you breed 2 hounds almost identical in hunt , independence, accuracy , mouth ect. In other words they seem to have all the same characteristics. What were the results. Did you get the outcome you wanted?

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Registered: Jan 2004
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4play, you are exactly right, linebreeding and inbreeding are not about pedigree its about keeping same traits.
This has been said a thousand times on here, I think the great breeder Jim Meeks(yadkin river) said it, every time you throw new blood in you are adding a new ocean of genes.
Meaning no way to get that Large gene pool to be consistent.
I like mine to look similar and sound alike and act like the line I know.
Hey but to each his own.

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Registered: Apr 2007
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Ok, so the question was if you breed two dogs with identical hunt traits will you get the results you are looking for from that cross? And then the other question was about inbreeding/ Line breeding?
#1. Crossing two dogs with desired and above average hunt traits in the "eyes of the breeder" doesn't equal a litter of pups with everything your heart desires. You have to consider males vs. females, as in if you take a female pup she gets one X chromosome from Mom and one from Dad. But wich X and from what older female in the pedigree is the mother passing? Remember she has 2 of them she could pass to her puppy. Then look at Dad, what X is he passing to his daughters? Is it the correct X ? Now take a look at male puppy, he has an Y Chromosome from Dad and an X from Mom, the Y chromosome in the males never splits it's the same Y in puppy, Father, Grand Dad, Great Grand Dad, ext.). But still wich X did puppy receive from his Mom. So as stated above you have to keep and watch the litter to determine wich puppy if any got all the tools in the toolbox you are looking for, and those that do not stand the measuring stick should be CULLED.....Don't pass on junk hounds there on every street corner. Did you every hear that behind a good male is a great female???? Hmmm.. Think about that for a moment, it's like an onion "Layers" .

#2. Line Breeding is the way you get that desired hound. Mouth, Tree Style, tracking ability, ability to tree game consistently, same locate, "Confirmation", color and accuracy every time you make a cross. You can be hunting a dog in 2016 that is the same as the dog from 1970. But it's not just saying these two dogs are related so let's cross em and if it works we are Line Breeding and if not there Inbreed.. Lol., So, I agree with above statement as to Uncle X Niece, Nephew X Aunt, ext.) but we need to educate ourselfs about it, what is FFI? What is the Breeders parodox ? What is and how does the Genotype and Phenotype apply to what I'm doing? How does a chromosome inheritance chart work and how to apply it? Where does certain dogs with desires traits need to be in a pedigree to be useful ? How do I set it up so only "2" of traits and styles come through and not the bad? Remember as you double up on good genetics you also double up and take a chance on bad one coming in to play. It's all possible but not over night and one cross. Ex.) 3M Drifter, Track Man, Durbins Rambler, Drop Dead Fred, Finley River Zoom, Finley River Zig, all those House Dogs, and bunch more I could name off the cuff. Good genetics and what we are looking for doesn't always have an all Grand Pedigree. No offense guys.

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Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Only way you can maintain a good line of dogs in my book.
Why are the House bred dogs still around and allot of the other old lines gone? cross bred them till they were no longer a line anymore.
We have an 8 month old litter out of Paulding Forest Bubba and his half sister that are turning out very nice, ask Jason Baldwin about his.

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Thinks for the last 2 post from mr Baldwin and art. So the half brother and sister how many were there in the litter. How many got the traits you aimed to get.

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NtCh Hardwood Chance, Hafe Brother Hafe Sisrer cross made NtCh as a one year old, there was 6 pups all alive an Treeing coon in the toughest state in the east AKA West Virginia, Chance is back in WV i may bring him back to NC an title him but make no mistake he is all coon dog, he is loud, very accurate, little tight on the ground but that works in WV, a open mouth dog will push a coon across strip mines where you don't won't to be, anyone that won't to see Hafe Brother Hafe Sister cross can call Buddy Combs (304) 294-8259 then head to WV.
Owner, Buddy Combs - Tim Osborne.

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Registered: Dec 2013
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My $.02, but I'm not a breeder. I've raised one litter and now I know it's NOT for me.

You may breed two individuals and never get the outcome you're looking for. Whether they're related or not. And if there were an exact way to do it. It would've been done by now. But in theory, if you breed to unrelated dogs you may be spinning your wheels for a while till you get a bunch of dogs that are starting to show the traits you're looking for. So basically you'd be starting your own line. Which is why it makes more sense to breed to related dogs that show the same traits you desire. That way you'd be trying to double down on the traits, cutting out a bunch of the leg work. And if you keep the entire litter to evaluate your pups to find out which pup has the traits you seek. It could be on pup, it could be the whole litter. But the reason you'd almost always be trying to keep the whole litter, would be to ensure each pup has the same environment/training. It'll increase your odds. What you'd be trying to do is bring to the table the homozygous.

You'd also need to know which dog in the pedigree threw dogs that showed the traits you're looking for. But there are some people that know the dogs in the pedigree. And have the knowledge of the traits that dog (A) passed on good or bad, and Dog(B) and so forth. Some of the issues you might run into are on some females, Sire (A) threw dogs with different traits than he did with other females. That's where the dominant and recessive genes come into play. And it gets hard to tell on what female will that sire or dam be dominant on. But if you find a dog that's completely dominant YOU"D have gold!!!! (homozygous vs heterozygous).

That's why it's almost always a crap shoot on what is going to work. Some people believe there is an exact pattern that will give you the traits. But if it were that simple we'd see them by now.

Last edited by novicane65 on 01-18-2016 at 02:24 PM

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Jackson, MO
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I made a half brother/half sister cross five years ago that I like. I started two pups from the cross. One is the gr. Nt. silver ch. Rough Mtn. Money Bawls and the other is my Nt. ch. Browns Midge. They are both nice but I liked the male a little better of the two. Money Bawls was the state money leader last year in Alabama. Money Bawls was an exceptionally impressive pup. He could consistently tree a tough track with a coon on the outside at a young age.


........Gr. Nt. Balls Stylish Harry
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........Gr. Nt. Browns Little Peg
Gr. Nt. Silver Ch. Rough Mtn. Money Bawls
........Gr. Nt. Nocturnal Skipper
....Gr. Nt. Browns Haley
........Gr. Nt. Browns Little Peg

I've also tried the uncle/niece thing and produced some nice hounds but I liked the results of the half brother/half sister cross the best.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
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My opinion is that the paper relationship is not as important as matching the like traits that you want. A year ago I mated my Penney dog to her uncle artificially. Frozen sperm only lasts 12 hours in a female and I wanted pups so I also naturally mated her to half-brother the next day. I was trying to concentrate her mother's sire. Now 13 months later there are top young dogs out of each sire.
Since 1972 I've been buying a pup each year from highly advertised walkers and raising it. Most were not well bred as the owners advertised, they were highly advertised. I was a genetics fan of Al Lynn and usually bought linebred pups. From this experience I'd say traits are more important than pedigree pattern, but if you know which individual is in your dogs pedigree carries the trait that you want then by all means concentrate that individual. If you are after outstanding performance then popular bloodlines should not be intensified as they are only of average ability. Linebreeding and inbreeding does not improve performance as a rule. It is a better tool to use to get rid of traits that you don't want.
I've also been line breeding a strain since 1972 that originated from Mack Twain and my old Mick dog. They are the product of many line bred generations, 11 or 12. I like them as well as Klear Kry Deventers Penney, that I won the Grand Master Super Slam with, but they are not competition dogs.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1566

quote:

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Originally posted by N Williams
Well no has done this much? Not talking about breeding full sibling. Uncle niece, half brother to sister, father to daughter. Lets say you breed 2 hounds almost identical in hunt , independence, accuracy , mouth ect. In other words they seem to have all the same characteristics. What were the results. Did you get the outcome you wanted?

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: Mo
Posts: 221

I've got 6 pups littermate cross they are actin good. I haven't seen anything that I don't like yet. They are all spoken for except one. But I might hang on to it myself. So far so good.

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Ntch PR''Crow Creek Hillbilly Harley
Ntch pr"J and R's Hillbilly Jilly
Grnitech pr" Crow Creek Hillbilly Hammer
Grnitech pr" Crow Creek Tree Rockin Ruby
Ntch grch pr Crow Creek Hillbilly Harley Jr
Ntch ch pr Crow Creek Hillbilly Blaster
Ntch ch pr Crow Creek Hillbilly Holly

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