Registered: Aug 2007
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 950

After having a good text discussion with a buddy the other day, I was looking through a CB mag from several years ago. I have read and re-read this article many times but this time when I looked at it, it struck me. Where are the big time pup machines that we had back in the day? And I say pup machines cause this is as close as a Redbone is going to get to being one...

Ace had 256 pups
T.C. had 431 pups
Woodpecker had 816 pups
Fireball had 924
Littleman had 854
Amos had 420
TJ and Chief both had 336
Timber Chopper J had 227
Coffmans Little Joe had 299

Shoot, even Billy had almost 500 pups when this was written. Some of these dogs were even around at the same time, which means at one time there were a lot of Redbone pups out there.

So my question is this: Is the Redbone breed decreasing in popularity? A stud dog any more, even a potent and proven reproducer like Rabble, Pete, etc...has to struggle to get even 100 pups on the ground.

What was the difference? When did this change take place? Are Redbones less popular than back then? And if so, why?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

I think there are several things. Internet being the main one. Back in the day, we waited until the magazine came out and would look at those full page ads that a small number could afford to buy. Now, whip up something on the message board for free and everyone know what you have and who its out of. The other thing kind of goes with it to a degree in that we can find sons of the great one scattered all over the country. I don't have my cb close, but there are at least half a dozen Rabble sons that are performance sires.

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

I think people are doing the same thing I was doing. I wanted to get that great hound from my own dogs. I call these guys, backyard breeders. I WAS one myself. Oh I had some nice hounds, they just didn't complement each other . I got a lot of the something.
I don't think popularty of our breed has changed that much. Heck, I think there are more good dogs to choose from now then ever. The numbers are telling us everything. It's up to us to change them. Rabble was a great example, its a shame. 190 pups. Even at that few pups he has two studdogs on the top ten reproducers list. I'm sure there will be a couple more make that list soon.
I will say it again. WE ARE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. But WE will have to work together to win the race.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: indiana
Posts: 6639

I believe it is the lack of big hunt winners and recruiting youth for the breed long term....we need a few big hunt winners...people want and follow big winners. Lil Red drew alot of attention in a short time.Create that a few times and it will create more followers.

I would also add...Mr bellar never come on here and boasted or wrote an add that I seen or tried to convince people of his beliefs or thinkings...he just won.

wfi

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Last edited by tylerman on 04-02-2014 at 03:24 PM

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 934

Might be that people bred for coondogs more than titles. Also people might night have been so clicky and so worried about having the best that they wouldn't let others buy a pup or breed to their male. A lot has changed since then I bet. Greed becomes more accepted and even rewarded in the human race every day. It's all about titles. If some of these dogs are as good as they are blown up to be then why do they need paid handlers who know how to bend the rules just right or just flat out try and bully their way to a win? Guess I'm a "back yard breeder" lmao. I bet if people did some research most of the big name dogs came from someone's back yard. People with money find out about them and buy them, spend a pile of money promoting them, then they go from a back yard dog to the next big thing. Most "back yard breeders" hunt by themselves and for themselves, not so they can try and impress others. There are good dogs and people in all types of breeding styles and I'm not running anyones choices in the ground. Anyone is welcome to bring their best up here and we'll turn them loose with a couple "back yard dogs" I bring mine all over the country. I invite whoever wants to come. You might just like these backyard dogs. I have a nephew to Rabble here that will throw as good of pups as anything I've seen. I'll let anyone breed a good female for free. He'll die before that happens much though lol. That's o.k. because my backyard is full of dogs that have him in their papers.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Are there just more studs to choose from now or has the number of overall pups being produced dropped. I have wondered this myself. Allen/Paul or Russell Smith, the guy that does the registration board would have to answer this.
#1. Has the overall # of Redbone pups registered/produced dropped over the years?
#2. Has the overall # of all breeds of coonhounds registered/produced dropped over the years?

I would think that the overall # of coonunters has dropped as the woods to hunt in has decreased. I know that the # of coonhunters around here has dropped. All of the complaints about studs/owners/cliques/backyards have been around for a long long time.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 04-02-2014 at 03:14 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

When I was a kid I walked out the driveway to go hunting and most nights I had to stop to listen and see which woodlot didn't already have a hound running in it. Prices of hides were high and the culture accepted coonhunters and their ways. That is what has changed more than anything. I think that if you have a good quality redbone and it's for sale you can fetch a better price than a walker of equal talent. You will have to ship the dog alot farther now to finalize the sale. Because there are less people in the sport but the demand for high quality Redbones is still there. It just is offset by the lower number of huntrers. JMO. Same goes for studs and numbers of pups being born. Richard has it right. "He's my hero by the way" lol

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NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
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NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

All you guys have good points. Kevin you are right . The word got out about a few of my backyard dogs, and every big name outthere showed up at my door waving money around. I had to much junk in my backyard. If a person has the goods do it.
I have one of those Rabble sons also.

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

I think you just have to look at the number of entries at competition hunts to see participation (in other words overall number of hunters) is way down from what it used to be. People still make the bigger hunts in high numbers but the smaller hunts and even rqe's are not nearly what they were 20 years ago.
I think some other things might have some bearing on the number of pups registered as well....
reproducer lists.....because since they came into being and a dogs reproducing success now measured by as a % of titled dogs vs overall # produced....it doesn't help to produce lots of pups that don't make it.
I think if you compare the overall # of titled dogs from a top reproducer today with one from 20-30 years ago....they reproduce titled dogs at a higher % now even with fewer pups...so one could say the tide has shifted from quantity to quality in the pups reproduced.
Another thing is the programs from UKC and pkc.....it costs more to register a litter now and pay all the performance and super stakes fees.
Dna........we all know that back in the day there was aa lot of paper swapping going on and before the reproducer lists started there were unscrupulous breeders out there that would throw an extra pup....or three into a litter from a good female because they could sell everyone they had. I know one big time redbone breeder from my state always had a file cabinet full of extra sets of papers and if you went to buy a dog from him...he would ask you what kind of breeding you were looking for and go in the house and produce a set of papers to match the dog he had for sale. I am glad that DNA put an end to all that nonsense....but the point I am making is there were people who would register extra pups back then so they could have extra papers laying around to slap on a dog if they came across one and it didntdidn't have papers or they wanted to make it out of their stud. Happened a lot....not just in this breed.
I also think popularity is down across the breed as a whole. Probably because their are more guys into competition hunting by % now vs pleasure hunting due to fur prices going way down over the years. Competition hunters read the forums and read the magazines and they want to go with pups from a breed that wins the most....and that's not us anymore. You will seldom find a picture of a redbone winning in any PKC prohound magazine or winning in big UKC hunts or the world hunts. Guys will say well there are more walkers or English than redbones and that's why .....but the fact is...new hunters coming into the sport look at the dogs winning the most...and they buy pups from those dogs....and they are not redbones.
These are a few things that I feel may be the reason for the lower numbers of pups sired by todaystoday's studs vs studs from the past....just my opinion.

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Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
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Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
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Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 04-02-2014 at 06:32 PM

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Ct.
Posts: 1384

I GOT TO AGREE THAT , THE % OF COONHUNTERS ARE DOWN FROM YESTER YR'S
BACK IN MY ERA YOU DID NOT HAVE THE BIG SELECTION OF GOOD ONES TO BREAD TO, LIKE TODAY.
INTERNET HAS MADE A WIDE SELECTION TO BREED TO
WITH AN ANSWER INSTENTLEY
WHEN YOU SENT A LETTER OUT YR. AGO TO A OWNER WITH A GOOD STUD BY THE TIME YOU GOT AN ANSWER ON HIM THE FEMAL WOULD BE OUT OF HEAT
WHEN YOU HAVE THE HIGH % OF STUDS TO CHOOSE FROM TODAY ,THAT DEF WILL BRING DOWN THE # OF PUPS, ON A MALE WHEN YOU SPRED THOSE F. AROUND

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Shipping dogs to get bred and shipping pups used to be a lot easier and less expensive than it is today also.
Heck when I had Billy the Kid and even before when I studded lots of walkers and a few black and tans..I had females shipped in all the time by air freight to ft. Wayne and would pick em up ...breed em, and ship them back. Would also go to Walmart and buy puppy shipping crates by the half dozen or dozen and ship pups anywhere in the country for $50-$75
I don't think they even ship dogs in the cargo holds anymore....and these dog transporters charge $250-$300 or more to ship a pup or way!...one way!

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: gillett PA
Posts: 545

back in 1979 there just wasn't as many TOP studs as now imo, take my state, Pa., I can recall 2 , maybe 3 GR. NT. males, Fred Moran and Claude Miller, and there may have been more but my memory doesn't recall , also I don't think there were any GR.NT. STUDS IN NYS, now a days there are lots to choose from in Pa. and a few in NYS.
Also as was mentioned shipping a dog to breed or getting a pup shipped was a lot easier. also back then the price of gas was closer to 1 dollar a gallon so a fellow could take his female to be breed with out costing an arm & leg.
now a days those females that are not good dogs are not being shipped and bred to the big name studs, again IMO, these females may still be being bred, but to a good dog closer to them. I think this is some of the reasons why the numbers are down on the bigger name studs, and as a result their % may go up.
Back when Amos was winning big I saw a few females from my area bred to him that may have been able to tree an easy coon, and we wonder why their % are down, and I know the same probably happen with all the top studs, but with todays prices on shipping I think this just may help the breed by eliminating some that should not be breed.
Some people look at dollars while we should look to better/improve the breed first, then look at the $$$

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NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
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GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
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Last edited by HERSHSHUNTIN on 04-02-2014 at 07:42 PM

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Corry,Pa
Posts: 801

I know when I've talked to older coonhunters in my area they allways said it was nothing to have 50+ dogs at a local hunt on average. I'm only 35 so I can't speak from my own experience, but from what anyone who can has told me there just isn't has many coonhunters as there used to be. All the other reasons brought up on this thread also contribute to the lack of #'s a stud dog will produce as well. IMO.
Personally I think the 100 pup minimum to make the reproducers list should be dropped to 50 pups by UKC just for these reasons alone. There are a lot of males out there that reproduce better then the reproducers list shows, but they will never reach that 100 pup criteria. So in turn most will never know about some of our breeds true best reproducers. Again IMO if a stud can maintain a certain % for 50 pups he would have been able to maintain that same % for a 100 pups too. Unless his owner had to just start breeding him to anything he could scrape up just to hit that 100 pup mark.

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GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' WATTS FLATS JUMP'EM UP JEB HTX-3 (DNA-P)
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(R.I.P.) GRNITECH 'PR' WATTS FLATS MUDDY CREEK MAGGIE HTX-2 (DNA-P)
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Last edited by WattsFlatsRedbo on 04-04-2014 at 10:29 PM

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 950

McMillans Red Jack: 85 pups and 13 titled dogs. I'd sure like to know more about this dog and what dogs today carry him in the pedigree.

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