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travis gideon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Alexandria, IN
Posts: 2606

Garmin in hunts ?'s

Question #1- when does this go in effect?

#2- in the rule's it says you can use an Alpha if the shocker is disabled...does this mean you can take the prongs out of the collar and you're good to go, or is there some other way to disable this option on the system?

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12-05-2013 01:26 PM

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Paul Frederick
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Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Laurel, IN
Posts: 1478

Re: Garmin in hunts ?'s

quote:
Originally posted by travis gideon
Question #1- when does this go in effect?

#2- in the rule's it says you can use an Alpha if the shocker is disabled...does this mean you can take the prongs out of the collar and you're good to go, or is there some other way to disable this option on the system?

Travis,

To question 1, it will go into effect January 1, 2014.

We are working on a FAQ page for the Telemetry rules which should clear a lot of this up. It's a big learning curve for all of us so we are doing our best.

Please notice, though, the rule does not say that the shocker has to be disabled, it says "controlling features" must be disabled. If you check before that in the same sentence, controlling features are defined as stimulating (shocking) or toning. So, no, if the prongs are out the controlling features are not disabled (because of the tone) and thus you cannot carry.

Like I said before, we are working on an FAQ which will clear up many of these questions. Also go back and read the Telemetry rules through a few times. We tried to make the rules as simple as we possibly could while still being as thorough as they needed to be.

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12-05-2013 01:45 PM

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travis gideon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Alexandria, IN
Posts: 2606

So, the Alpha is still not allowed as far as I can see.....

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12-05-2013 01:54 PM

seth isch
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Registered: Dec 2003
Location:
Posts: 2209

Travis

Travis ... U are correct... But u can leave it in the truck and use it on a timeout.. Not sure why u can't keep it in the off position on your side and use it on a timeout.. But hey u can stand and look at your 320 or 220 for a solid 2 hrs 😡

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12-05-2013 03:24 PM

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travis gideon
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Alexandria, IN
Posts: 2606

Re: Travis

[QUOTE]Originally posted by seth isch
Travis ... U are correct... But u can leave it in the truck and use it on a timeout.. Not sure why u can't keep it in the off position on your side and use it on a timeout.. But hey u can stand and look at your 320 or 220 for a solid 2 hrs 😡 [/QUOTE

I got ya I think the only possible answer to this, and it still may not be allowed, is to have Garmin create an update for the Alpha that allows the hunter to turn off or disable the shocking and toning portion of the system?!?! Even then it could be argued that the hunter or handler could enable it during the hunt. God knows while the other cast members are glued to their GPS's you too could simply hit a few buttons and turn everything back on, at least that will be the argument of those without the Alpha!

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12-05-2013 03:46 PM

travis gideon
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Alexandria, IN
Posts: 2606

This was on another post, I like it.....still would like an update so this could be done much easier, still probably won't allow them though!

Way #1 granted this is easy to get around but it still works. You can lock the buttons and the alpha will not shock or tone.

Way#2 to disable the alpha so you can not use the tone or the shock. It takes just a few minutes. for those of you with the alpha, in the manual it tells how to track and or train your buddies collars using the track code and the train code. If you go to the dog list pick a dog and show the info. There will be a track code and a train code. Write down the track code. Now remove that collar from your hand held. Next go to add a dog. It will ask you if you are near the collar. Enter no. It will then ask if you know the track/train codes. Press yes. It will ask you to enter the track code you wrote down. Do not put in the train code. Just follow the prompts. When done you will be able to track that collar but the shock and tone will not work. When you are out pleasure hunting just remove that collar from the hand held. Go to add a collar and when it asks if you are near the collar say yes and follow the prompts. This will pair your collar with all functions operational. This seems like a hassle but you will be able to carry your alpha with you. Just show the cast members that the tone/shock do not work. If it doesn't shock or tone it's disabled right??

Way #3. (My personal favorite) HAS TO REMAIN OFF! If it's off it doesn't work period.

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12-05-2013 03:54 PM

Dogwhisper
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1745

How to disable the controlling feature has been figured out read
"muleriders" post in another thread dated 12/3/2013.
Just need
UKC's BLESSING ON IT.

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Allen / UKC
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George and all those curious, give me a little time and I will elaborate further on UKC's interpretation of "disabled".

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12-05-2013 04:25 PM

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Dogwhisper
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I understand .

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12-05-2013 04:42 PM

travis gideon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Alexandria, IN
Posts: 2606

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
George and all those curious, give me a little time and I will elaborate further on UKC's interpretation of "disabled".

Thanks Al!!! Seem weird that when UKC made these new rules for GPS's that they would not strongly consider the Alpha and its use along with the other units. While reading it I thought for sure I was going to run into the part that addressed the Alpha specifically. Never did, but when I came to the disabled portion I assumed UKC was allowing the Alpha....it was just unclear to me.

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12-05-2013 04:51 PM

Dogwhisper
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This is a Pict. of my garmin alpha 100 with the "controlling feature" disabled . Notice where it say's train code ,WHAT DOES IT SAY?
The controlling option for this collar does not even appear on the screen!!!
Its Disabled.

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12-05-2013 05:51 PM

GA DAWG
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Registered: Jun 2003
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Posts: 14388

Just allow them to be used. Problem solved. I don't even have one.

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12-05-2013 06:02 PM

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Dogwhisper
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Allen, I m sorry but I just can't be quiet, we r so close to allowing the use of the alpha 100.
Now "IF" UKC allows the alpha 100 w/the "controlling feature" disabled. At that point the alpha 100 is no different than the 220/320 garmins that will be allowed in the hunts.
Why should we as alpha users have to get the other cast members approval. That is not even right.

Last edited by Dogwhisper on 12-05-2013 at 06:34 PM

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12-05-2013 06:25 PM

Tim MACHA
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Allen, I m sorry but I just can't be quiet, we r so close to allowing the use of the alpha 100.
Now "IF" UKC allows the alpha 100 w/the "controlling feature" disabled. At that point the alpha 100 is no different than the 220/320 garmins that will be allowed in the hunts.
Why should we as alpha users have to get the other cast members approval. That is not even right.

At the same time as Garmin makes a tracking only collar for the Alpa. I wouldn't think that would take much engineering to create one.

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12-05-2013 06:47 PM

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john Duemmer
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How is carrying an Alpha with the training features turned off any different than carrying a shock collar remote turned off? We know that is against the rules. Im always in favor of useing technology, and dont really care if a guy wants to fry his own dog all night long but the possibility of a handler haveing the ability to hit a couple buttons and TONE can affect others, that could get ugly.

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Troy Arnold
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 365

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Allen, I m sorry but I just can't be quiet, we r so close to allowing the use of the alpha 100.
Now "IF" UKC allows the alpha 100 w/the "controlling feature" disabled. At that point the alpha 100 is no different than the 220/320 garmins that will be allowed in the hunts.
Why should we as alpha users have to get the other cast members approval. That is not even right.

What would keep a guy from turning it back on tone or shock his dog and then disable again so if someone looked at it it says off? How would you know if guys were doing this or not? I dont have one so I dont know but it sounds like if you could turn it on and off people would do that all the time, maybe its not that easy?

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12-05-2013 09:10 PM

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Tim MACHA
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

quote:
Originally posted by tja51horns
What would keep a guy from turning it back on tone or shock his dog and then disable again so if someone looked at it it says off? How would you know if guys were doing this or not? I dont have one so I dont know but it sounds like if you could turn it on and off people would do that all the time, maybe its not that easy?

Cheaters are going to cheat, no matter what the rule.

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12-05-2013 11:22 PM

Troy Arnold
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Why make it easier to do so though. I can imagine your frustration having one and not getting to use is but if they let you why not let shockers in too.

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12-06-2013 12:40 PM

B Thompson
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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 139

quote:
Originally posted by tja51horns
Why make it easier to do so though. I can imagine your frustration having one and not getting to use is but if they let you why not let shockers in too.

Then why allow the astros then. Do you not believe that astro owners will not have an unfair advantage over alpha users , simply because of what someone might do . It has been shown the alphas can be disabled . They need to either allow all or none.

Copied and pasted from ukc front page

Any negative discussion generally surrounds concern for handlers using telemetry to gain an unfair advantage or to cheat in some manner. Some do in fact make good arguments. However, we can also easily go overboard with implementing rules to guard against the crook to the point of the honest individual being left with unnecessary sacrifices. Why? A crook is a crook regardless of any written rule. Last time anyone checked the nite hunt rules they were based on an honor system. In other words, they are there but they still require the hunter to �honor� them. Before we get too carried away with pointing fingers at a crook, think about something as simple as we (considered as being honest) voted to circle a tree that we would have considered slick had it been a pleasure hunt or had our own dog not been a part of it? Where�s the honor in that? Sometimes this topic can hit a little closer to home than we would like for it to. Yes?

It�s time to use the resources available to us for the betterment of our hunt and safety to hounds

Is an alpha user any less honorable then an astro user? Do they not deserve the same respect?

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12-06-2013 03:03 PM

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donaldpeyton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location:
Posts: 268

I like the idea of having them on! But it's not the guy handling with Alfa that I don't like its the spectator who is with him that has the collar on his. I think the should just have to collar up without the points in the collars.

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12-06-2013 03:09 PM

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David Webb
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: northcarolina
Posts: 490

ALPHA ?

UKC is just not getting this,
IT'S NOT THE EQUIPMENT, IT'S THE OPERATOR THAT NEEDS ADDRESSED
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/...3417725_HDR.jpg
The ALPHA can be disabled
Sure, I can "Disable" my ALPHA, but I still think I should not have to.
The ALPHA is the best training/location tool we have at this time & does not need any major changes & Garmin may need to know that UKC wants it changed, but why fool with a good thing.
Being a long time MOH & Club Officer on the local level, & after discussion here with some club members, I think this will cause some decline in hunt participation.
I know I will not enter if I have to leave my Alpha in the truck, while everybody else on the cast gets to carry their Astro or Sportdog
Just My Opinion
David

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john Duemmer
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper

This is a Pict. of my garmin alpha 100 with the "controlling feature" disabled . Notice where it say's train code ,WHAT DOES IT SAY?
The controlling option for this collar does not even appear on the screen!!!
Its Disabled.

Is there any way to tell if the collar that is disabled is the collar that is on the dog?

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12-06-2013 06:56 PM

Dogwhisper
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Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Is there any way to tell if the collar that is disabled is the collar that is on the dog?

Notice track code. That code is paired/matched with the collar in ?, it will be visible.

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12-06-2013 07:36 PM

john Duemmer
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Notice track code. That code is paired/matched with the collar in ?, it will be visible.

Maybe my question wasnt very clear. How would a judge check the collar to make sure it is the collar that is disabled?

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12-06-2013 07:48 PM

Dogwhisper
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I agree,the Astros/Sportdog shouldn't have the upper hand.
But I do understand the suspicion associated with the Alpha. But is that reason alone to confine it to the vehicle?

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12-06-2013 07:49 PM

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