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RIDGERUNNER
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Registered: May 2004
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Tail docking question

Why do they dock the tails on cur dogs? Is it for looks, or does it serve a purpose? I was just wondering.

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Old Post 09-29-2013 07:36 PM
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orchidhunter
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Re: Tail docking question

quote:
Originally posted by RIDGERUNNER
Why do they dock the tails on cur dogs? Is it for looks, or does it serve a purpose? I was just wondering.
Bubbas the absence of tails in working dogs goes back centuries in Britain, where a farmer or drover was exempted from paying taxes on his working dogs if they had docked tails. This system was abandoned in 1796 because many other dogs had their tails docked to avoid the tax. The custom of docking survived though, and is still carried on with many breeds today, especially sporting dogs.

In early Britain, most short-tailed droving dogs were known as Curs. Some had docked tails and others were born with short tails. 'Cur' was not always a negative term- they were prized animals. Welsh herdsmen thought their curs were 'of equal value to an ox'. The word 'Cur' is thought to have come from the Swedish word for 'dog','Kurre'. When early droving dogs had their tails docked, it was known as 'curtailing', a word used nowadays to mean 'cutting short'. Curs were quick, courageous and intelligent, and were used mainly for droving cattle. They were larger, stronger and fiercer than shepherds' dogs, with smoother, shorter hair. They were mostly black and white, with half-pricked ears and many were born with short tails. The McNab breed in the United States bears a strong resemblance to early Curs. It is likely that the McNab and the Stumpy-Tail Cattle Dog share a common ancestry in the Cur.

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Old Post 09-29-2013 08:52 PM
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nccatfisher
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: NC
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Re: Tail docking question

quote:
Originally posted by RIDGERUNNER
Why do they dock the tails on cur dogs? Is it for looks, or does it serve a purpose? I was just wondering.

So they won't beat a feist to death on the tree wagging it.

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Old Post 09-29-2013 09:50 PM
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DavisDogHauling
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Re: Re: Tail docking question

quote:
Originally posted by nccatfisher
So they won't beat a feist to death on the tree wagging it.


LMAO

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Old Post 09-29-2013 10:20 PM
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fycedogs
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Re: Tail docking question

quote:
Originally posted by RIDGERUNNER
Why do they dock the tails on cur dogs? Is it for looks, or does it serve a purpose? I was just wondering.


I think orchid hunter has stated the accepted history for the practice, from what I see in old pictures it has just became popular again somewhat recently, first cur I ever hunted with in the early 70's had a docked tail. Only other excuse I have heard is if you try to pull a ground dog ( ok boys I mean fiest or other go to ground type dogs) out of a hole with a full tail you can break or pull the tail off, I guess where it narrows down. As far as today it is just a way to show a dog is a cur or a fiest, and mainly as a way to increase sales.

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Last edited by fycedogs on 09-30-2013 at 01:52 AM

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Old Post 09-30-2013 01:50 AM
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nccatfisher
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So Doberman, Pit, Rott, Weimaraner, boxer, bulldogs, etc they are all cur and feist also from that explanation?

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Old Post 09-30-2013 02:39 AM
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fycedogs
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Yes, I would say so, or, to turn it around, curs and fiest as we know them today are included in the meaning accepted at the time. Remember most "breeds" are only a hundred or two years old. . Most of those breeds you mentioned,(except for those not usually docked?) descend from the Gaelic, Germanic, and Celtic breeds of shepherd, hunting, and defense type of dogs . In other words, items of value of the subject classes, easily identified and taxed.

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:06 AM
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DavisDogHauling
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Could be some bob them since the omcba standard calls for medium length or natural bob tail

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:11 AM
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plottnation
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Wonder where the natural bob tail comes from..

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:31 AM
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plottnation
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I have hunted a dog until the end of their tale became hairless and bloody.Docking could be a
way to reduce that problem

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:34 AM
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fycedogs
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quote:
Originally posted by plottnation
Wonder where the natural bob tail comes from..


My guess it was intentionally bred into these dogs of value. Why else would it be so prominent?

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:34 AM
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fycedogs
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quote:
Originally posted by plottnation
I have hunted a dog until the end of their tale became hairless and bloody.Docking could be a
way to reduce that problem



true enough, common on a good deer dog around here

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:38 AM
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nccatfisher
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quote:
Originally posted by fycedogs
Yes, I would say so, or, to turn it around, curs and fiest as we know them today are included in the meaning accepted at the time. Remember most "breeds" are only a hundred or two years old. . Most of those breeds you mentioned,(except for those not usually docked?) descend from the Gaelic, Germanic, and Celtic breeds of shepherd, hunting, and defense type of dogs . In other words, items of value of the subject classes, easily identified and taxed.
Which ones I mentioned other than English Bulldogs and Rotts aren't normally docked?

I have been raising Busher bred curs around 15 years and can count on one hand the number of pups out of around 50 that aren't normally natural bob.

Boxers, Dobermans, Pits, American Bulls, Weimaraner 90% of them are born long tailed. Do people cut them to identify them as curs and feist by your original definition?

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:44 AM
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nccatfisher
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1381

quote:
Originally posted by plottnation
Wonder where the natural bob tail comes from..
Breeding I would guess. Here is one of my stud dogs and he has no tail, absolutely none. What you are seeing is a tuft of hair. But occasionally even being bred to a natural bob female he will throw a long tailed pup.


This was another of mine he is now dead but he has a bunny tail and he almost never threw a pup with a tail. Even bred to a female with a cropped tail. Don't get me wrong, I like a tail about long enough to get a hand full when you grab them. These males just happened to suit me and were given what they got by mother nature. I don't breed for those short things.

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Last edited by nccatfisher on 09-30-2013 at 03:57 AM

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:55 AM
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plottnation
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Hey Ridgerunner you have any squirrels in them mountains?

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Old Post 09-30-2013 03:58 AM
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plottnation
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Tim just wondering where the genetics may have came from..I have seen some natural bob tails in English shepherd too.Breeding can be very complicated for me ...It seems to me it would need to be a dominant trait in a dog to have started the trait..But I don't know..Should have stayed awake in biology .

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Old Post 09-30-2013 04:07 AM
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nccatfisher
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I don't have a clue. The person or persons that claims these curs were ever pure or were brought over here pure I have to laugh at.

Heck anyone knows that even 75-100 years ago they had dogs running around on the farm and if it did well it lived and paid for it's keep in servitude. If it was a female and they decided to breed it and so and so had a dog close that was a treedog and it was a male most likely that was what it got bred to. If the female was lacking in a certain area and so and so within a respectable distance had a dog that was good in that area that was who it was bred to. That was how these curs were developed locally. When I say locally I mean the southeast.

When they decided to start up a registry a little over 50 years ago what they had that was pretty much uniform was what they went with. They single registered a few years but it wasn't all that long.

There are plenty of rumors and I am sure that enough of them could be substantiated that stuff has been added to the pot since the registry has been closed also.

With all that being said I would be willing to bet you that you could take dogs that throw long tailed pups and keep breeding them and continue to get that to the end of time. I also bet you could continue to breed dogs that throw bobtailed pups with minimal outcrossing and get bobtailed pups that same amount of time. I am guessing it is just traits that the dogs have continued to carry with them since the original hodgepodge was thrown together.

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Old Post 09-30-2013 04:21 AM
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plottnation
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Original Mountain cur and some history behind them.

It is believed that the Mountain Cur came from Europe, along with their owners who came to America in search of new homes. It has been established through family history and research that Spanish explorers brought the bob-tail on the South course. Hernando de Soto brought bob-tail current to drive the pigs and provide protection against wild animals, while he explored the South and later discovered the Mississippi River.............................If they where natural bobs I guess this answered my question...

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Old Post 09-30-2013 04:22 AM
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plottnation
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Thanks Tim, we posted same time.

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Old Post 09-30-2013 04:26 AM
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fycedogs
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quote:
Originally posted by nccatfisher
Which ones I mentioned other than English Bulldogs and Rotts aren't normally docked?

I have been raising Busher bred curs around 15 years and can count on one hand the number of pups out of around 50 that aren't normally natural bob.

Boxers, Dobermans, Pits, American Bulls, Weimaraner 90% of them are born long tailed. Do people cut them to identify them as curs and feist by your original definition?



Well, it isn't to the point of the original guestion, but pit's aren't normally docked around here , much less to the two example you admitted to??

As far as Boxers and etc. as why their tails are docked am I expected to prove a negative? We know they are; can you explain why they shouldn't be? Could it be tradition as I suggest? How about your "15 years of raising busher dogs" with a high number of bobtails, how does this do anything but confirm what I have already stated? You might want to sleep on this one, you are in way over your head.

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Old Post 09-30-2013 04:35 AM
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nccatfisher
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quote:
Originally posted by fycedogs
Well, it isn't to the point of the original guestion, but pit's aren't normally docked around here , much less to the two example you admitted to??

As far as Boxers and etc. as why their tails are docked am I expected to prove a negative? We know they are; can you explain why they shouldn't be? Could it be tradition as I suggest? How about your "15 years of raising busher dogs" with a high number of bobtails, how does this do anything but confirm what I have already stated? You might want to sleep on this one, you are in way over your head.

Your the one that said dogs tails were docked to identify them as curs and feist, your words not mine. You may need to "sleep it off". Not me.

Here just in case you say so much you have forgotten what you said I copied it for you.

quote:
Originally posted by fycedogs
As far as today it is just a way to show a dog is a cur or a fiest,

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RIDGERUNNER
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Plottnation, there's a few. Not like it should be though. At least not that I've seen. You in Arkansas?

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Old Post 09-30-2013 05:00 AM
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mdmorrison
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Re: Tail docking question

quote:
Originally posted by RIDGERUNNER
Why do they dock the tails on cur dogs? Is it for looks, or does it serve a purpose? I was just wondering.


The short answer is: Because most folks in recent times want an OMC with a bob-tail. Wasn't true years ago, as evidenced by our written breed standards and the old photos of many dogs.

Mark.

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fycedogs
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Re: Re: Tail docking question

quote:
Originally posted by mdmorrison
The short answer is: Because most folks in recent times want an OMC with a bob-tail. Wasn't true years ago, as evidenced by our written breed standards and the old photos of many dogs.

Mark.



This is what I said, as concerns today's "look" of curs and fiest. I do see more fiest with full tails recently.

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Old Post 09-30-2013 04:45 PM
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fycedogs
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quote:
Originally posted by nccatfisher
Your the one that said dogs tails were docked to identify them as curs and feist, your words not mine. You may need to "sleep it off". Not me.

Here just in case you say so much you have forgotten what you said I copied it for you.



You don't think curs and fiest are docked to fit the accepted "look" ?
As far as natural bob tails, I think it is so common for some reason, My guess is it trait that has been considered desirable.

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