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tree_dogs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Connersville, In.
Posts: 768

*** Rule Change ***

I would like to see the rule changed for UKC World Hunt ( FINAL CAST ONLY ) . The cast winner will be crowned WORLD CHAMPION and the rest of the cast placed 2nd thru 4th even if they don't have plus points ! They have all had to have plus points to get there and had to hunt alone with plus points also . Anything can happen that late in the game , and it's not fair to HOUND or HANDLER not to receive their recognition . If they all get scratched then go to the scores they had at time of being scratched . Not wanting to start a bunch of arguing just would like for the right people to see this --- again !!! Thanks !

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Old Post 08-03-2013 01:20 AM
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perry co cooner
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1839

Hmmm I don't know but I don't think I'd like calling a dog a world champion or 2nd, 3rd or 4th if they were all scratched for something. I will agree that it's an incredible feat for both dog and handler to make it to the final cast of a world hunt. That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

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Old Post 08-03-2013 03:58 AM
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boxmanwillie
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: ohio
Posts: 394

RULE CHANGE

GOOD CALL DONNIE WHEN A MAN MAKES IT THAT FAR HE DESERVES WHAT EVER PLACE HE COMES IN LOL

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Old Post 08-03-2013 09:30 AM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2078

Re: RULE CHANGE

quote:
Originally posted by boxmanwillie
GOOD CALL DONNIE WHEN A MAN MAKES IT THAT FAR HE DESERVES WHAT EVER PLACE HE COMES IN LOL
x2

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Old Post 08-03-2013 01:07 PM
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duvall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: ohio
Posts: 1344

Sorry Donnie but I can't agree on this one, The final four is supposed to be the best of the best, crowning a World Ch without plus points just don't seem right.....Jeff

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Old Post 08-03-2013 02:11 PM
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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by duvall
Sorry Donnie but I can't agree on this one, The final four is supposed to be the best of the best, crowning a World Ch without plus points just don't seem right.....Jeff


X2

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Old Post 08-03-2013 02:46 PM
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Cry Tough Blues
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Registered: Jan 2005
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The best have bad nights too, a winner there should be

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Old Post 08-03-2013 02:48 PM
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T Felderman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1874

quote:
Originally posted by duvall
Sorry Donnie but I can't agree on this one, The final four is supposed to be the best of the best, crowning a World Ch without plus points just don't seem right.....Jeff

x3
And if you need overtime to get a winner everyone starts at 0!

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Old Post 08-04-2013 05:36 AM
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last chance
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Registered: Apr 2004
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In the final cast at the end of the two hours no dog has plus points, then as far as a World Champion there isn't one! No overtimes!

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Old Post 08-04-2013 01:13 PM
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john Duemmer
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

I think that final cast should just stay in the woods until someones dog trees a coon.

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Old Post 08-04-2013 01:25 PM
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nccoonhunter197
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

No plus points no winner at that point. Go into overtime, first tree scored with coon in it OT is over and dog with most plus points wins. OT lasts until a coon is treed. You will have a winner and the rest can place according to score. If only one dog has plus points after OT then the others can place based on their original final cast score.

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Old Post 08-04-2013 02:30 PM
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JeepsandGsds
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Taylorsville, Ky
Posts: 213

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
No plus points no winner at that point. Go into overtime, first tree scored with coon in it OT is over and dog with most plus points wins. OT lasts until a coon is treed. You will have a winner and the rest can place according to score. If only one dog has plus points after OT then the others can place based on their original final cast score.
how could it be fair to use the scores from two different cast. If you go to over time everyone should get a clean slate. I do agree the winner should have plus points, but using two different score cards is just crazy

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Old Post 08-04-2013 03:22 PM
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Paul Frederick
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Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Laurel, IN
Posts: 1478

I guess I don't understand the need to change the system currently in place. Very seldom has the Final Four gone into overtime (it did in '12) and only one time in 33 years has there been no world champion crowned. That means 32 out of 33 years we've had a champion. If you won 32 out of 33 casts with you're dog I'd say you wouldn't want to change a thing.

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Old Post 08-04-2013 07:20 PM
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tree_dogs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Connersville, In.
Posts: 768

change

My reason for this thought is by the time you get to the final cast , a lot of the ground has been hunted hard , weather has been a factor , and people and hounds have spent a lot of time and money to get where they are. They have had to have plus points every cast to get there , even by theirselves and all 4 dogs are on the same ground. So what is the point of plus points as long as you have a cast winner . Does this make the dog any less of a winner ? NO !! And Paul I see what you are saying , but I think Murphfeesboro, Tn. had trouble years ago also. I just don't think it is fair to hound or handler if this would happen . And stranger things have happened !!

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Old Post 08-05-2013 01:39 AM
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nccoonhunter197
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

quote:
Originally posted by JeepsandGsds
how could it be fair to use the scores from two different cast. If you go to over time everyone should get a clean slate. I do agree the winner should have plus points, but using two different score cards is just crazy


What score would you use if only one or two dogs had plus points after the OT period? Not place any of the other dogs? You would have to fall back on the previous score.

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Old Post 08-05-2013 03:57 AM
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blackflagginit
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: burnt district MO/KS border
Posts: 787

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Frederick
I guess I don't understand the need to change the system currently in place. Very seldom has the Final Four gone into overtime (it did in '12) and only one time in 33 years has there been no world champion crowned. That means 32 out of 33 years we've had a champion. If you won 32 out of 33 casts with you're dog I'd say you wouldn't want to change a thing.


yup

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Old Post 08-05-2013 07:13 PM
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last chance
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 481

What I was saying is there shouldn't be a over time for the final cast! If the best in the world don't have plus points at the end of the two hour hunt then that means no world champion for that year, why should they get a second chance to score plus? No other dogs get a second chance on the way to the final four!

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Old Post 08-06-2013 12:15 AM
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blackflagginit
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quote:
Originally posted by last chance
What I was saying is there shouldn't be a over time for the final cast! If the best in the world don't have plus points at the end of the two hour hunt then that means no world champion for that year, why should they get a second chance to score plus? No other dogs get a second chance on the way to the final four!


your right there should never be OT. either there is a wld ch or not. simple as that.

I wonder though, how many remember the 88 world championship...it was won with + points (75+ to be exact) in the final few minuts of the cast, much to the annoyance of the field reps at the time, and the dog who won never had any part of treeing the coon or running the track that got it there. he came in in the last cpl minutes of the tree-hunt and COVERED the female who did (she had too much minuse for the tree to bring her to the plus side)

he had been too busy running a coyote all night to tree coons or draw much minus .........

the rest of the cast was waiting for the hunt time to run out so a new OT hunt could be ran

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Old Post 08-07-2013 06:17 PM
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Paul Frederick
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Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Laurel, IN
Posts: 1478

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
your right there should never be OT. either there is a wld ch or not. simple as that.

I wonder though, how many remember the 88 world championship...it was won with + points (75+ to be exact) in the final few minuts of the cast, much to the annoyance of the field reps at the time, and the dog who won never had any part of treeing the coon or running the track that got it there. he came in in the last cpl minutes of the tree-hunt and COVERED the female who did (she had too much minuse for the tree to bring her to the plus side)

he had been too busy running a coyote all night to tree coons or draw much minus .........

the rest of the cast was waiting for the hunt time to run out so a new OT hunt could be ran



I think you're thinking of the wrong year. 1988 is the year Kansas Sizzlin Heat won it. It wasn't pretty either, but it was won fair-and-square by Heat with 75+.

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bruce huffman
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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: va
Posts: 323

It sounds to me that a lot of people here have never been to the finial cast and understand what it takes to get that far.I beleave there should be a winner they have proven themselves. The way some of you are talking we should just do away with circle trees and just have plus or minus.Just because theres a hole or leaves on that means you see a coon no chances or benefit.

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blackflagginit
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Registered: Oct 2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Frederick
I think you're thinking of the wrong year. 1988 is the year Kansas Sizzlin Heat won it. It wasn't pretty either, but it was won fair-and-square by Heat with 75+.



heat is exactly who I was talking about

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Old Post 08-25-2013 11:15 PM
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Paul Frederick
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Registered: Nov 2012
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quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
heat is exactly who I was talking about


Oh, ok. Sorry to say you are grossly misinformed of your facts about the 1988 World when Heat won it.

The only coon that was scored that night was on the first tree of the night, not the last. Heat did have 2nd and 2nd to C&S Smokey who had fourth and first. No other dog was on the tree.

There was no female on the cast. It consisted of Heat, Smokey, Russ' Treein Blu Toad, and Contrary Creek Dyamite.

Heat and Smokey were the only two dogs who drew any plus points in the entire two hours. Every dog on the cast did draw minus though. (Smokey drew 200 minus by leaving two separate trees; heat drew 75 by leaving one.)

Heat was scored on one more tree that night (where he had first tree) that was circled. He was also handled on another tree but wasn't declared treed.

At the end of the hunt it wasn't pretty but Heat won it fair and square.

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Old Post 08-26-2013 01:28 PM
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blackflagginit
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maybe you would like to post the scorecard

I promise you I know heat WAY better than you ever did

he was owned and raised by JD Nickols just north of me in rich hill mo till he was 6 and cannon bought him.

he was never fully broke from deer and coyotes despite several good trainers best efforts. in fact jim wore out a tri tronics shock collar trying to do just that.

jim bought him when he couldn't get roy howell to sell saber, and won the world hunt roughly 6 months later.

Last edited by Paul Frederick on 10-01-2013 at 08:42 PM

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Old Post 09-02-2013 10:03 PM
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John D
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

You mean this scorecard:


I'm going to disagree with Paul's statement that Smokey's minus is due to leaving trees. I've heard a different version from a Field Rep that was there.

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Old Post 10-01-2013 08:23 PM
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Paul Frederick
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Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Laurel, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
maybe you would like to post the scorecard

I promise you I know heat WAY better than you ever did

he was owned and raised by JD Nickols just north of me in rich hill mo till he was 6 and cannon bought him.

he was never fully broke from deer and coyotes despite several good trainers best efforts. in fact jim wore out a tri tronics shock collar trying to do just that.

jim bought him when he couldn't get roy howell to sell saber, and won the world hunt roughly 6 months later.


funny thing about it all, the head of ukc field ops at the time has crowned a plot wld ch in a cpl other kc's as well.....they seem to win them when he is in control and never again.



I have no doubt you probably knew Heat way better than I do. I was 4 when he won the World Hunt so I didn't get to hunt with him any.

I think if you go back to your original post with your account of the 1988 Final Four, it does not, in any way, match with the scorecard John D just posted. All I have to go off of is the coverage in the December 1988 issue of COONHOUND BLOODLINES which has this very picture of the scorecard in it.

Heat may have been a coyote and deer running fool, I don't know. I do know he beat 3 other male dogs in the final cast of the 1988 UKC Coonhound World Championship fair and square.

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