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john Duemmer
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
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Hunt? UKC. please respond.

4 dog cast, dogs ABandC are struck.
AandB are treed deep left
Dog C treed Deep right.
Both trees close and while walking toward A and B dog D is struck and teed close to the cast.
Handlers A and B go to handle their dogs while the judge and dog Ds handler handle him.
Judge and Ds handler go to dog C and handle him.
Cast meets at area of Ds tree and agree to score Ds tree first but Dog D has gone quiet and he and his tree cant be found.
While looking we find his chewed leash at the base of the tree where he was handled. NOW WHAT?
Can Ds tree be scored while he is missing?
Now dog D shows up at his tree and is rehandled, Now can his tree be scored?
What if Dog D cant be found? Can you call timeout and give D his hour, and if you do can you minus him both ways after he has been handled?

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 05-20-2013 at 10:26 PM

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LIL-E
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Why run the five on D IF A B C already treed?

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CLJohnson
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Seems like it should be scored as always if the judge told the handler to handle his dog, it chewin the leash is just something that happens

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pamjohnson
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just score all the trees n call time out if all agree.(ya cant call time out before u score all trees or no pts count) if d isn't there to handle he has an hour to get him.

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Dogwhisper
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u r not supposed to score trees out of order, regardless of what the cast agrees on,or how convenient it is .Ther is luanguage that allows for add 15 min. bac into ur hunt time if split tree distance xceed that time.
Appears yaw need a new judge that can apply the rules not one that agrees with the majority.

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john Duemmer
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Heres the root of my question...... When a dog that has been handled at a tree goes missing before the tree is scored how are his points delt with? Give me a rule or something from the advisor that backs it up.

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Old Post 05-20-2013 02:42 AM
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GA DAWG
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Yes score it in pkc. Pkc board Ukc. I have no idea. Id minus the dog. Be no different than the 2 catching him after the five was up. I don't have a rule number or know if its right but in my eyes. It does not need 125+ points if it left a Coon. His strike would open back up. Then when he came back. He could tree it again. Plus that's why I use a solid cable and chain lol.

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joey
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He was handled at the tree so score him. I really donít have any idea how UKC will handle this. Until I get a official answer he will be scored. If he had not came back then after the other trees were scored the handler would have one hour to catch his dog to be recast. I canít point out a rule for you but until I was told otherwise thatís how I would handle it. Letís see what UKC says.

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JiM
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If a dog leaves a tree, I minus them. What difference does it make if the dog was handled or if the judge said "handle your dog"? If they leave, they should be minused based on rule 4(c). It says minus when dog leaves tree. It DOESN'T say minus when dog leaves tree UNLESS IT WAS HANDLED or minus when dog leaves tree UNLESS JUDGE HAS SAID HANDLE YOUR DOG. It just says minus if dog leaves the tree. Seems simple enough to me.

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joey
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You could be absolutely correct Jim, but all the requirements for that tree to be scored were met.

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Charles Pullen
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Minus on tree & he's holding his strike open .

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John D
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Location: Missouri
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When a judge gives the order to handle dogs at a tree and one dog takes off running, he gets minused, period.

This is a slightly different situation since the dog was handled. I don't believe I've ever seen an interpretation on this. At that point he no longer has to bark once every 2 minutes which suggests that he has met the requirements of being "at the tree".

But, what do you do if you can't find the tree? You can't walk around the woods all night looking for the other half of his leash. You have the dog and no tree and tree points to score. Seems like he deserves some minus since he DID leave a tree and has a bad habit.

I'll be looking for an official interpretation on this.

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Rough Northern
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Delete all pts.

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john Duemmer
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
If a dog leaves a tree, I minus them. What difference does it make if the dog was handled or if the judge said "handle your dog"? If they leave, they should be minused based on rule 4(c). It says minus when dog leaves tree. It DOESN'T say minus when dog leaves tree UNLESS IT WAS HANDLED or minus when dog leaves tree UNLESS JUDGE HAS SAID HANDLE YOUR DOG. It just says minus if dog leaves the tree. Seems simple enough to me.


You may be right Jim, but i dont think its that simple. a dogs responsibility changes after he is handled, we dont require him to bark every two minutes or be minused do we.

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LIL-E
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quote:
Originally posted by LIL-E
Why run the five on D IF A B C already treed?

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john Duemmer
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quote:
Originally posted by LIL-E



The 5 wasnt run on D, all dogs were treed, he was left tied to go and handle dog C (judges dog)with the judge. and then the cast met back at dog Ds tree simply because it was a central meeting place.

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JiM
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quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
You may be right Jim, but i dont think its that simple. a dogs responsibility changes after he is handled, we dont require him to bark every two minutes or be minused do we.



John, the rule requiring a dog to bark at least once every two minutes is rule 4(f). The rule that minuses for leaving is rule 4(c). Two different rules for two different faults. A dog can be barking and still be minused if it leaves and I think a dog would be minused for leaving even it it was handled. But I have been wrong before.

If I'm judging, I ill minus and the MOH/UKC can take it from there if necessary.

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joey
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quote:
Originally posted by John D
Seems like he deserves some minus since he DID leave a tree and has a bad habit.


I guess that would be a matter of opinion. I know several dogs that are all night tree dogs. But once you get there and put them on a leash they are ready to go to the next one.


As you mentioned I have never seen an interpretation on this one and I donít think the black and white rule covers it.

So until we get an interpretation, Jim is going to minus him and I am not until told otherwise.

You also mentioned walking around looking for his leash what if more dogs were there to show the tree. Or what do you do with one that is tied, not barking and you cant find him?

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kayapellijed390
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I picture Todd and Allen reading this with the Blake Shelton song Some Beach running through their heads. LMAO!!!! Do you think a day will ever come when we have exhausted every possible scenario and situation? What a nightmare their jobs must be. Thanks for the hard work and dedication guys. LOL!!!!!!!!!!

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john Duemmer
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Btt

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John D
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If the dog chewed his leash in 2, that's a fault. Maybe the handlers fault for not using a steel cable leash, but still a fault.

If the dog left the tree after chewing his leash in two, then that's a fault.

If the dog doesn't bark on the tree enough to find him, thats a fault.

Then, once he does leave, he comes dragging back into the cast. Another fault.

With that many faults, he deserves some minus, imo.

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jculler8
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
If a dog leaves a tree, I minus them. What difference does it make if the dog was handled or if the judge said "handle your dog"? If they leave, they should be minused based on rule 4(c). It says minus when dog leaves tree. It DOESN'T say minus when dog leaves tree UNLESS IT WAS HANDLED or minus when dog leaves tree UNLESS JUDGE HAS SAID HANDLE YOUR DOG. It just says minus if dog leaves the tree. Seems simple enough to me.


It also says minus if a treed dog isn't barking every 2 minutes, but I remember Allen saying to find a handled dog and score the tree even if its not barking anymore. Your argument doesn't hold much weight Jim, the dog was already handled.

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JiM
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Explain how a dog running loose is handled.

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runnin rebels
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To clarify when it comes to "one of the dogs declared treed must bark at least once every two minutes or be minused" (or something to that affect), it is UKC's postion that the two no longer applies once the dog(s) is handled.

Quote from allen

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Allen / UKC
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quote:
Originally posted by kayapellijed390
I picture Todd and Allen reading this with the Blake Shelton song Some Beach running through their heads. LMAO!!!! Do you think a day will ever come when we have exhausted every possible scenario and situation? What a nightmare their jobs must be. Thanks for the hard work and dedication guys. LOL!!!!!!!!!!



Haha... Actually, I got the answer to this very question after a similar personal experience 15 years ago. We were down to a three dog cast. Two dogs treed together. My female split treed approximately 60 yards from them. The judge had me go handle her and come back to score the first tree. I found her treed on a short snag with the coon sitting in plain sight eight feet above her head. I hooked her to a small sapling and went back to score the first tree.

We started squalling at the first tree trying to get a coon to look. While still shining I hear my female take off running/trailing. I'm like...what the heck? She trails to the edge of the timber, with lead strap in tow, and falls treed again. We all looked at each other trying to decide on what to do.

In any case, it didn't take long to figure out that her coon bailed after we started squalling and she easily stripped her lead from the sapling and re-treed it. I even showed the other guys the snag she was originally treed on. Of course the coon was no longer there.

The next week I called UKC to get an official answer on how to score such a scenario. I was told that if a dog left a tree, whether it stripped it's leash from a sapling, chewed it's lead in half or the landowner came back and unsnapped the dog and shooed it off, a hawk swooped down and carried her off etc. etc... then the dog is minused tree points for leaving tree.

So yeah, no head scratching this time. lol. Something I learned 15 years ago. I'm pretty sure I wrote about such a scenario in the past 10 years but would need to do some searching. Regardless, a dog must be handled AND at the tree being scored in order to receive any credit on that tree.

Many times similar situations are scored incorrectly. The most popular being; a dog leaves tree after the judge instructs to handle dogs but before the handler could get the dog leashed - it takes off. Then they incorrectly resolve to calling time out and giving the handler one hour to catch the dog and bring it back to the tree for scoring on the tree. Or sometimes the dog isn't even brought back to the tree. The cast simply scores the tree then call time out and give the handler an hour to catch the dog before giving credit to the "left" dog on that scored tree.

Wish I remembered who was on that cast when that happened to me. I remember one dog being an English female but that's about it. Maybe one of those cast mates will read this and remember the situation I referred to.

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