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mvhplank
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 35

Poodle clip question

I've just read all of the threads that showed up in my search for "English saddle clip" (going back for years) just to make sure I wasn't starting a discussion that had been done to death.

I'm new to poodles and new to conformation, but I'm game to give it a go. In fact, I had the baby out to a whole weekend of shows in September but was disappointed to find he was the only standard poodle--indeed, the only poodle of any description--on the whole showgrounds. So we got 100 points but with NO competition, which actually felt pretty disappointing. On the other hand, I found exhibitors to be very friendly and generous with advice, and one handler pulled me off the sideline to run one of her "lesser" dogs in best of breed. I had a blast and learned a lot.

So the poodle baby will be a year old in February and I recently went to the woman who has his sire, an AKC champion, to set my boy's show clip. (I'm going to blame David Arthur, who has never met me, for talking me out of going straight to a sporting clip. In a forum posting, he wrote about "honoring their heritage." Well, that, and the person who asked me how I like my Labradoodle--I thought I'd make it perfectly clear this was a POODLE.)

I wanted an English saddle clip, mostly because I don't like the look of the shaved back end. The groomer said most people look at an English saddle and immediately assume you're hiding a bad back end. And the way she set it, it does hide too much, I think. I asked about the length of hair in the middle section of the leg and she said the shorter look went out in the 1920s, even though you can find it in poodle books still in print. However, I LIKE that look.

So I'm not 100% happy with the English saddle as he's currently wearing it, either. I think the hair on the back end is, well, too pouffy. I'd be inclined to take it down to 1/4 inch on the pack AND the leg above the hock. Sort of give him a pair of Speedos versus the formal trousers he's wearing now. After all, his legs have nothing to hide, at least in my opinion.

So, if I do that, what kind of trouble am I setting myself up for? Laughing and finger-pointing? Or will no one notice, since the clip doesn't seem to be all that common? Or will he be appreciated for setting a bold, retro look?

In any event, he's a happy boy, asleep at my feet as I type this, and truly, my biggest worry in the conformation ring is to keep him from mugging the judge in his exuberance to meet his new best friend.

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Marguerite Plank
UKC Rally Judge (Provisional) #7117
Gettysburg, PA
URX3 UROG UCD Devlin, 2011 & 2012 Rally All Star, Level 2 and Level 3 (rescued Rat Terrier)
URO1 Bridget (rescued Rat Terrier)
Standard Poodle CH URO2 Piccolo's Niall Delaney, CGC, RLP, BN [UKC Group 1][UKC Rally H.I.T. 9-13-14]

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Old Post 12-05-2012 04:08 AM
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TheresaPool
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 129

I don't know much about poodles, but groomingal on this forum has beautiful poodles I am sure she can give you all the ins & outs of the grooming of the breed.
Even with no other poodles at the show if you got any group placements over other dogs you got comp wins.

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Old Post 12-05-2012 01:25 PM
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mvhplank
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 35

quote:
Originally posted by TheresaPool
...Even with no other poodles at the show if you got any group placements over other dogs you got comp wins.


That's right, but we didn't place in group--no doubt correctly, too, as there were plenty of good dogs up against a mostly out-of-control puppy and a green-as-grass handler, in spite of obedience/rally experience.

I'll look up the member you suggest--thanks!

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Marguerite Plank
UKC Rally Judge (Provisional) #7117
Gettysburg, PA
URX3 UROG UCD Devlin, 2011 & 2012 Rally All Star, Level 2 and Level 3 (rescued Rat Terrier)
URO1 Bridget (rescued Rat Terrier)
Standard Poodle CH URO2 Piccolo's Niall Delaney, CGC, RLP, BN [UKC Group 1][UKC Rally H.I.T. 9-13-14]

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Old Post 12-05-2012 03:56 PM
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TheresaPool
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 129

Oh I understand both of those, I have only been showing 3 yrs & that is very limitedly. I have terriers & some of them seem to never grow up, but right now I have a very wild 9 month old male & a 4 month old bitch, so we have LOTS of puppy schnanigans.
Definately do look up groomingal, I met her at the recent show in Wapakoneta, OH. she is a very nice lady, a wonderful handler, & has beautiful poodles.

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Old Post 12-05-2012 04:16 PM
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mvhplank
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 35

quote:
Originally posted by TheresaPool
...Definately do look up groomingal, I met her at the recent show in Wapakoneta, OH. she is a very nice lady, a wonderful handler, & has beautiful poodles.


I looked up her posts but she didn't include any pictures. I will certainly chat up poodle people I meet at shows. I hear there will be plenty of poodles to go around at a series of shows near here (Gettysburg-Biglerville area in Pennsylvania) in April. At last year's shows there were a number of helpful poodle people who came up and looked over the boy, who was still too young to show in Novice Puppy at that time.

I was there with Devlin and we picked up his URX2 out in the covered pavilion while the conformation folks all got to play indoors.

Marguerite

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Marguerite Plank
UKC Rally Judge (Provisional) #7117
Gettysburg, PA
URX3 UROG UCD Devlin, 2011 & 2012 Rally All Star, Level 2 and Level 3 (rescued Rat Terrier)
URO1 Bridget (rescued Rat Terrier)
Standard Poodle CH URO2 Piccolo's Niall Delaney, CGC, RLP, BN [UKC Group 1][UKC Rally H.I.T. 9-13-14]

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Old Post 12-05-2012 04:26 PM
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goldkat
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 89

It sounds like the groomer set the pack and puffs correctly, and short puffs are very out of style, it may be in books but they are probably photos from the 60's. There is a reason why the longer puffs are in style --it gives the dog a nicer outline. No one will laugh at you if you change it, but you should do it now so you have time before the next shows to grow it back out if you don't like it. I don't think I have seen a poodle in English saddle trim at UKC shows and the sporting trim is very except-able --for UKC. If you are looking for poodles you need to head to Ohio or Michigan. :-)

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Old Post 12-05-2012 11:29 PM
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mvhplank
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 35

quote:
Originally posted by goldkat
It sounds like the groomer set the pack and puffs correctly, and short puffs are very out of style, it may be in books but they are probably photos from the 60's. There is a reason why the longer puffs are in style --it gives the dog a nicer outline. No one will laugh at you if you change it, but you should do it now so you have time before the next shows to grow it back out if you don't like it. I don't think I have seen a poodle in English saddle trim at UKC shows and the sporting trim is very except-able --for UKC. If you are looking for poodles you need to head to Ohio or Michigan. :-)


Thanks. I think I said the groomer thought short clips were even older than the 60s, and it seems to me that trimming shorter would give an outline similar to the continental, except for the hip puffs. Oh, well, up till now I've been a terrier person, so what do I know?

Ohio and Michigan will have to come to me, I'm afraid, as I don't have the budget to go visit them. I can spend all my spare money at shows and trials within an hour or two's drive, since I'm still running Devlin in CDSP obedience and APDT and UKC rally.

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Marguerite Plank
UKC Rally Judge (Provisional) #7117
Gettysburg, PA
URX3 UROG UCD Devlin, 2011 & 2012 Rally All Star, Level 2 and Level 3 (rescued Rat Terrier)
URO1 Bridget (rescued Rat Terrier)
Standard Poodle CH URO2 Piccolo's Niall Delaney, CGC, RLP, BN [UKC Group 1][UKC Rally H.I.T. 9-13-14]

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Old Post 12-06-2012 01:35 AM
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GloriaOgdahl
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Franklin, NC
Posts: 70

I saw the picture of your dog on another forum..looks like the groomer has in in the correct look for his length of coat.

I really have not noticed judges "judging" the clips. It's not like AKC where every hair has to be in place..or that you are DQ'd for wrong clip. In fact, UKC has no penilty for a 'wrong" clip.

occasionally a dog will look more balanced in a different pattern.

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Old Post 12-07-2012 04:34 PM
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GloriaOgdahl
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Franklin, NC
Posts: 70

also..the rump on an ES is supposed to be more rounded..not flat like the puppy clip or sporting clip

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Old Post 12-07-2012 04:41 PM
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mvhplank
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 35

quote:
Originally posted by GloriaOgdahl
also..the rump on an ES is supposed to be more rounded..not flat like the puppy clip or sporting clip


Thanks very much! As I said on that other forum. the look is growing on me and I'll follow the advice that I paid for, since I have no expertise in this area at all!

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Marguerite Plank
UKC Rally Judge (Provisional) #7117
Gettysburg, PA
URX3 UROG UCD Devlin, 2011 & 2012 Rally All Star, Level 2 and Level 3 (rescued Rat Terrier)
URO1 Bridget (rescued Rat Terrier)
Standard Poodle CH URO2 Piccolo's Niall Delaney, CGC, RLP, BN [UKC Group 1][UKC Rally H.I.T. 9-13-14]

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Old Post 12-07-2012 05:12 PM
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Bijoupoodles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: North America
Posts: 417

quote:
Originally posted by GloriaOgdahl
UKC has no penilty for a 'wrong" clip.

occasionally a dog will look more balanced in a different pattern.



Actually UKC has a breed standard and we people showing had better know it before we enter the ring ...

because "yes" judges have excused Poodles in an "unacceptable" clip at shows I have been at...
and they have every right to do so.

Just want to be clear that UKC does have a criteria for showing your Poodle

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Old Post 12-09-2012 03:38 PM
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goldkat
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 89

There is NO disqualification for improper trim, listed within the standard, there are only suggestions on what trims to use. I have shown poodles all over the country and have seen many trims not listed in the standard and never saw someone DQed for that. The only thing I could think of is if the dog is in a competitive grooming trim and looks like a rooster with dyed feathers.

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Old Post 12-09-2012 04:07 PM
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Bijoupoodles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: North America
Posts: 417

Pom or not to Pom Pom

The "bare butt" look... the bane of my chosen breed... LOL

I totally have to agree with you... LOL not a "look" I prefer for my Poodles either.

Not only does it turn the general public totally off of the Poodle as an option for a breed to own... the public seriously think a Poodle has to look and be kept that way... and now new exhibitors to UKC are also thinking this is the only way to show their Poodle... sigh

I personally do much prefer coat outlining the nice lines of my Poodle with an easier to maintain clip for sure and they still exemplify a Poodle.

There are many judges out there should see a quality dog under what every acceptable clip you choose to use but you could certainly make their job easier with presenting them with a more familiar clip too.

When I showed Poodles 20 years ago it was always said that the "english saddle clip" was to hide lack of rear anglulation... so you will have to deal with that stigma automatically... and you can explain and and debate the issue all you want... but you will have an uphill battle with that (to most) unfamiliar clip.

I have shown my poodles shaved down to the wood (yes a #7) because we were doing field work and other performance events so it makes live easier... and I can focus on the dog and less on keeping their "hair dos"... and what is funny is is that I have had so many judges thank me saying "you have made my job so much easier" because nothing is hidden for them... and we have placed in Breed like that over Poodles in full continental clips too.... and in Group and one of my poodles even won a Best in Show in a Sporting Clip. So there you go

AND the continental clip today sure does not resemble the original one either... no wiggies/switches (fake hair added into the elastic top knots), no hair spray/mousse, gel, no 2 feet of coat growth... it was a functioning shorter raggedy looking misshapen clip. off the top of my head an image of Boyu
comes to mind: http://www.bijoupoodles.com/images/Boyu2.bmp

I guess what I'm saying is do what you wish and makes you happy, but ... you do have other options that might do your Poodle more justice and that you can still win with them wearing as well

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Old Post 12-09-2012 04:13 PM
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Bijoupoodles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: North America
Posts: 417

I stand corrected...

quote:
Originally posted by goldkat
There is NO disqualification for improper trim, listed within the standard, there are only suggestions on what trims to use.


I had to go back and look...

You are correct that while UKC lists acceptable coat clips,
it does not say after that any Fault or Disqualification under the Coat description...
that anything other than traditional coat clips are a
Disqualification... HUH...Thank you for the education !

Well there you go...
we can show Poodles over a year of age in a PUPPY CLIP... LOL

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/Poodle07012009

COAT

The Poodle has harsh, dense, curly coat. For conformation
exhibition, the coat may be presented naturally, corded,
or in one of the traditional clips described below.

Corded
Puppy
English Saddle
Continental
Sporting

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Old Post 12-09-2012 04:24 PM
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goldkat
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 89

If your dog doesn't have a good rear end I guess you would want to hide it. We show our dogs in "proper" trim so we can show in any venue. My dog here does not have any "wiggies", hairspray, or dye in him.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...698875716_n.jpg

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Old Post 12-09-2012 04:29 PM
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goldkat
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 89

Also have my Multi color standard in proper trim waiting for Canada! Both dogs are listed as #1 on top ten list.
Photos taken by Kelsay Wolf, Gloria's daughter.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...776508258_n.jpg

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Old Post 12-09-2012 04:32 PM
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Bijoupoodles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: North America
Posts: 417

quote:
Originally posted by goldkat
Also have my Multi color standard in proper trim waiting for Canada! Both dogs are listed as #1 on top ten list.
Photos taken by Kelsay Wolf, Gloria's daughter.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...776508258_n.jpg



While I don't enjoy the Clip I too have shown my Poodles in Continental and without product. and we did have two of our Poodles place UKC's Top 10
in 2011.

UKC's #4 Poodle 2011
http://www.bijoupoodles.com/images/...p11110202sm.jpg

My point is...

Can we show with continental clip... YES

Should Poodle owners have to show with the continental clip
to win with a good Poodle... NO

We have options that will be supported by UKC

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Old Post 12-09-2012 04:46 PM
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Rikki
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 210

The Continental has definately grown on me but I think its great the UKC allows dog to be show in the sporting clip also. Personally - I don't care for the English Saddle. We had our Std male in one and we were fortunate to meet David Anderson (Poodles by DeRay) at Wapakoneta one year and he put him in a Continental at the show. Talk about a BIG difference. I could then see what a nice rear our boy had. The english saddle is a LOT more scissoring and grooming in our opinion. But that's our opinion. We keep our show boys in the continental so we can do both UKC and AKC.
I really like the properly set continental. If you notice Goldkats dogs they are in beautiful continentals. Some people have the jackets too short or too long or the rosets in the wrong place. If you don't have the pattern set properly it can make a square dog look too long or dumpy, hide a nice shelf on the rear.

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