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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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Rule 9.....

Why is this such an ironclad scratch?
Previous to the last rule session, it was a scratch if you turned in a card without the handlers signature. Then they changed it to say they can notify the handler of his mistake and have him come back and sign the card AFTER it has been turned in to avoid being scratched. That makes sense. Why can't that same rule be applied to clerical mistakes such as neglecting to put a plus beside a point value? The MOH calls the judge back, the judge marks the card correctly, no harm, no foul. What's the big deal that this must be a scratch?

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07-22-2012 06:10 PM

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Brandon Gudgeon
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Re: Rule 9.....

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Why is this such an ironclad scratch?
Previous to the last rule session, it was a scratch if you turned in a card without the handlers signature. Then they changed it to say they can notify the handler of his mistake and have him come back and sign the card AFTER it has been turned in to avoid being scratched. That makes sense. Why can't that same rule be applied to clerical mistakes such as neglecting to put a plus beside a point value? The MOH calls the judge back, the judge marks the card correctly, no harm, no foul. What's the big deal that this must be a scratch?

I agree. At this point the "rules are the rules", but to me I'm a firm believer in wanting the best dog to win the cast. Hate to hear when a "deserving" dog is beat because of a discrepancy.

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07-22-2012 06:20 PM

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Oak Ridge
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

I agree with one addition to the requirement. All handlers must be present and agree on the scoring of the incomplete tree. This would prevent the cast winner from plussing a tree that was agreed upon by the cast to be circled. We all know that a majority of the time only cast winners return to the clubhouse.

I think that a MOH should be able to clarify with a non hunting judge and make any adjustments needed.

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07-22-2012 06:22 PM

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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
I agree with one addition to the requirement. All handlers must be present and agree on the scoring of the incomplete tree. This would prevent the cast winner from plussing a tree that was agreed upon by the cast to be circled. We all know that a majority of the time only cast winners return to the clubhouse.

I think that a MOH should be able to clarify with a non hunting judge and make any adjustments needed.

Exactly. That's why this rule must be enforced, too many circle points are easy to put a plus sign on the way to the clubhouse when only the winner returns.

I don't know that I would say all the cast present but at least the majority.

I would also be fine with them going by what a non hunting judge said too.

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07-22-2012 09:37 PM

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Joe S.
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Man cause it's the rules UKC has Like um or not if u dont like it leave plain an simple~ theres rules they have i dont agree with theres rules PKC has i dont agree with but ya know what i follow them an do as im suppose to im sorry it happen to a youth but rules are rules man....Alot of yall need to stick to pleasure hunting man, come here to read about hounds an peoples dogs an see people arguing about a rule being broken an how it's bs....

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07-22-2012 09:45 PM

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Dan Dogs
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are the scores in the plus and minus column to be marked also or is it not nessesary being the top of the column is already marked plus and minus. can someone give me a 100% rite answer.

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07-23-2012 06:34 PM

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Dan Dogs
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
are the scores in the plus and minus column to be marked also or is it not nessesary being the top of the column is already marked plus and minus. can someone give me a 100% rite answer.

nobody!!

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07-23-2012 06:56 PM

Tim MACHA
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Posts: 2159

Contact your breed reps

If it were brought up at a rule committee, a change or clarification could be worked out.

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07-23-2012 07:09 PM

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Robert Johnson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
nobody!!

I'll take a stab at answering you. The two left hand columns, under strike and tree must carry the plus or minus, circle designation. the rest of the card is for judge notes etc.. That is what we got explained to us in the rep meeting before the world.

Now why someone else asked? Simply put, if you just carried it out to say all points not designated minus or circle were assummed plus, a good cheater could make a card come out plus, after the card was signed easily. Plus, minus, circle, in the strike and tree columns is where it has to be. It does make it nice when a good judge will carry it over to the correct right hand column and designate it there also for some easy adding.

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07-23-2012 07:19 PM

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Dan Dogs
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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Platteville, Wi
Posts: 5676

thanks, if the card is not complete does this mean the whole cast is scratched or just the dog score in limbo

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07-23-2012 07:29 PM

truly
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
thanks, if the card is not complete does this mean the whole cast is scratched or just the dog score in limbo

it is my understanding that the cast win can go to the next high scoring dog in the cast that has had all scores properly noted. Which opens a can of worms doesn't it? tricky handler/judge fills out card, leaves CW with a missing point value, has CW lose cast on technicality, then judge wins cause he made sure his columns were done right?

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07-23-2012 07:34 PM

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Charles Pullen
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
thanks, if the card is not complete does this mean the whole cast is scratched or just the dog score in limbo

Just the dog that " DOESN'T " have a plus , minus, circle , or delete .

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07-23-2012 07:37 PM

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Dan Dogs
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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Platteville, Wi
Posts: 5676

thats what i was thinking too. a judge could put it too someone that was a beginer. i think the rule needs to be changed or revise it to the whole card is thrown out. that way someone in the same cast cant come out with a cheap win. what were they thinking when they come up with this rule.. do away with this rule or keep it, but atleast throw the whole card out..

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07-23-2012 07:40 PM

Brandon Gudgeon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Leadmine, Wisconsin
Posts: 1992

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
thats what i was thinking too. a judge could put it too someone that was a beginer. i think the rule needs to be changed or revise it to the whole card is thrown out. that way someone in the same cast cant come out with a cheap win. what were they thinking when they come up with this rule.. do away with this rule or keep it, but atleast throw the whole card out..

X2. Might help keep some "teamwork" in a cast. Let the dogs do the winning.

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07-23-2012 08:07 PM

Virgil
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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2713

quote:
Originally posted by truly
it is my understanding that the cast win can go to the next high scoring dog in the cast that has had all scores properly noted. Which opens a can of worms doesn't it? tricky handler/judge fills out card, leaves CW with a missing point value, has CW lose cast on technicality, then judge wins cause he made sure his columns were done right?

Good point, if the judge messes up the card he too should be automatically DQ'ed as well. If UKC doesn't change the rule to allow revision of the card for things such as a missing plus or minus they need to add this to the rule.

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07-23-2012 08:54 PM

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Robert Johnson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4252

you all have good points, but in the real world, and using the real rule book, in that quality judges should be picked, i don't think the judges will intentionally mess up it to much. Oh its possible, but i would sincerely hope they never try it with me as MOH. I think it would be real safe to say that they would have just completed their last UKC hunt for a long time.

Last edited by Robert Johnson on 07-24-2012 at 06:34 PM

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07-23-2012 11:36 PM

Pat Bizich
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I have read about the young man's dog getting scratched for the score not having the plus value beside a score at the National youth hunt.
I cannot find that thread now but I would guess that is why this one was started.
At the risk of getting jumped on.Even if the totaled score was incorrect I believe the ball got dropped on that boy.
A little common sense is all is needed.
Let me explain
First ,let's read the newest advisor regarding incomplete scorecards beginning on page 96 and ending on page99.
It clearly addresses mistaken scores,scoring addition errors,etc.
The MOH has the authority to make corrections.
So it is my belief that if a error occurred fix it.PERIOD!
One might argue "What about rule 9?"
If you read the official interpretations Rule 9 is really advising that if there is an error and you don't catch it and the MOH don't catch it "TOO BAD ,SO SAD". Should have checked the scores before signing the card.
Now lets address Rule 13 in the advisor about incomplete score cards.OOPS! Guess what that rule only applies to unsigned score cards.Double OOPS! That rule was changed at the last rules commitee and is now worded to allow you to sign the card in front of the MOH.Matter of fact read the new cards.In parentacies
under rule 13 it clearly states Math errors may be corrected HD and corrections by MOH.Argue it is not a math error.Okay was his total score correct? Does not matter that is covered again.MOH can make corrections.
Another matter of fact is scores not totaled IS NOT A REASON FOR A SCRATCH.
Right below it says strike and or tree points not recorded and scored is a scratch.I interpret that as having not been written down on the card such as a strike or tree erronously having been failed to be written on the card.IT SAYS RECORDED..
These are implied rules that are not any where on a score card .So you need to use common sense.
It is virtually impossible to have a cast thrown out for any type of scorecard errors since the last couple of rules commitee
rule changes.

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07-25-2012 02:17 AM

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JiM
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Location: New Paris, Indiana
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I like your interpretation. Pat, the problem is yours don't matter. UKCs does. And they make theirs very clear in the speech before draw out.

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07-25-2012 04:23 AM

smokin-1-mo
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I like your interpretation. Pat, the problem is yours don't matter. UKCs does. And they make theirs very clear in the speech before draw out.

IM CURIOUS ,,IM SURE THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN BUT..IF THIS WAS THE FINAL CAST OF THE WORLD DO YOU THINK THIS WOULD OF PLAYED OUT THE SAME...

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gdjr
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Comments?

Where's the big boys on this one??????

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Robert Johnson
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quote:
Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
IM CURIOUS ,,IM SURE THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN BUT..IF THIS WAS THE FINAL CAST OF THE WORLD DO YOU THINK THIS WOULD OF PLAYED OUT THE SAME...

Yes I do! rules are rules and they'll be followed to the letter at the world and elsewhere. Why have them if you aren't going to follow them?

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07-25-2012 03:13 PM

K. Singletary
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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Moncks Corner, South Carolina
Posts: 1814

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
I'll take a stab at answering you. The two left hand columns, under strike and tree must carry the plus or minus, circle designation. the rest of the card is for judge notes etc.. That is what we got explained to us in the rep meeting before the world.

Now why someone else asked? Simply put, if you just carried it out to say all points not designated minus or circle were assummed plus, a good cheater could make a card come out plus, after the card was signed easily. Plus, minus, circle, in the strike and tree columns is where it has to be. It does make it nice when a good judge will carry it over to the correct right hand column and designate it there also for some easy adding.

I know this is UKC's stance but I think they have it backwards. On some casts the strike and tree columns on the left are unreadable. I know when I'm judging, I write down the scores as called, but if we get in there and the dogs are split I have to scratch through (no eraser most of the time) what I wrote and write it in another column. There are other times when I accidently write the wrong score down for the wrong dog and have to scratch through that. Other times points are deleted or dogs are struck with a line, add to that a wet card from sweat this time of year and by the end of the cast the left hand side of that card is a mess. I never move scores to the right hand side of the card until the hunt is over and I have the card on the hood of my truck. I write the final scores for each dog in ink and I circle the cast winner. Someone could add as many signs or points as they want to the left hand side of that card, but they can't change those final scores. I think the left hand side of the card should be considered judge's notes, while it should be a requirement that the write hand side is filled out and totaled with the final scores done in ink. This would solve what UKC is attempting to fix. Their current ruling doesn't address somone just adding another tree to the card which can be done just as easily as adding a plus sign.

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JDC
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It is the rule and I will follow it but I am not a fan of this rule. Was this the idea of the rules committe or someone else. I have hunted in the hunt for 16 years and have seen scorecards tampered with. I don't think it matters if there are points on the card or not if someone wants to cheat on the way back to the club house all they have to do is write new ones in and plus them. I think we need to change this rule just as we changed the time writing rule that use to get people scratched. The goal is for the best dog that night to win right?

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07-25-2012 03:42 PM

John Book
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how about make it manditory that all empty boxes on score card have a x or check in them when card is complete to eliminate any altercations when on way back to club house or a space on there to indicate finall score & it can not be corrected unless infront of master of hounds.

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Okie Dawg
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Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe S.
Man cause it's the rules UKC has Like um or not if u dont like it leave plain an simple~ theres rules they have i dont agree with theres rules PKC has i dont agree with but ya know what i follow them an do as im suppose to im sorry it happen to a youth but rules are rules man....Alot of yall need to stick to pleasure hunting man, come here to read about hounds an peoples dogs an see people arguing about a rule being broken an how it's bs....

Honor rules............not intended to be use against a winner to make him loose.
Rules are rules is the poorest excuse for excepting a win that you know your dog or you don't deserve.
Same reason you have to have a contract in triplicate instead of a hand shake. Thanks god there are a few I can still do buisness with on just just a hand shake.

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07-25-2012 05:42 PM