Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

The other post about dog leaving tree, and our recent Zone hunt brought some things to mind that I'm curious about. Granted, I don't see it happening to me in the near future. My dog trees as a last resort, and I take advantage of the rarity whenever possible. Anyway, two scenarios...

Dog A's handler is informed by the judge that he is starting the 5 on the dog, based on the "obviously treed by not called" rule, or interpretation, or whatever it's being called. After 2 minutes dog shuts up and 2 is started. Two catches dog.

Second scenario, 5 is placed on dog and 5 expires. Before they can reach the tree, dog has left and is back on track.

Let me know how you would handle these situations. Hopefully management will give an official ruling, as there were diverse discussions at the Zone.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Eddyville, Iowa
Posts: 482

I have often wondered about these two scenarios as well. I would think that a great deal of common sense would have to be used on both. I believe if I were the one judging: the first scenario, I would have to delete any points that I may have recorded. The second is a bit on the tricky side but I would probably do the same here. It's up to the handler to know their dog, and I have been as guilty as the rest on waiting to make sure. Could a judge, if it happens this way, scratch a handler for not calling his dog if they go back and tree again on the same one after these scenarios? I guess you start the process all over again.

__________________
Keep your viewpoint sharp on what truly matters............... and leave everything else a blur!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

Once again Darrell I am at a loss and I have even reread my whole rule book.Where exactly is the "obviously treed but not called" rule Located???? I seem to remember some discussion on this but have never found it in the rule book,am I overlooking it somewhere and if not can a judge start the five if it isn't covered in the rules??

__________________
Friends are Cherished and Hunting is a Pleasure
Pete Miles

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

Darrell
in each situation the judge would delete any points he would have placed on the scorecard.and as a handler i would tell the judge i will call my own dog treed when hes treed,thankyou very much.lol
thursday nite at the finals,one dog had the cast won as long as he (the handler)didnt do anything stupid.the dog treed solid the last 42 minutes of the hunt.the judge didnt pressure the handler to tree the dog so there was no sense in doing so.

i wish the rules were spelled out in black and white on this topic.as it is now it is a gray area and differs greatly from judge to judge.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: ashland,mo
Posts: 57

UKC RULES ONLY REQUIRE YOU TO STRIKE YOUR DOG ON OR BEFORE THE THIRD BARK. UKC DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO TREE YOUR DOG. PKC DIFFERENT SET OF RULES.

__________________
JAY WILLIAMS
SOUTHERN SHADOW BLUETICKS
573-556-6254

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

There is no question that the judge can and should put the 5 on a dog that is treed and the handler is obviously avoiding calling the dog. Its been spelled out in past advisor columns what to do if the 5 expires. The judge goes in, have the dog leashed, and score it whether there is coon, slick or offgame.

Its not so clear what to do if the dog leaves before the 5 expires or the dog leaves before he can be handled at the tree.

Last edited by John D on 09-23-2003 at 01:52 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: western NY
Posts: 72

read Adviser ,June 2003 Bloodlines.If dog is still treeing after 5 ,go to tree and score it. If coon is there,- strike points.If slick or off game,- strike and tree.Rule 9 ,handler must tell judge when dog strikes and trees.If the dog leaves,continue as if it never happened.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1084

Boys I must agree with J.W on this one. I've never seen or heard of a ukc rule such as this one. Several times I have listened to my dog tree for quite some time and the judge has stood right beside me and never said a word. If any judge ever tries to tree my dog we will have a problem.

PKC- the judge can ask for 10 minutes anytime in this ten u can tree your dog. if he's still treeing after 10 he will go score the tree. If the dog leaves before the ten is up then nothing is scored.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Eddyville, Iowa
Posts: 482

Although it isn't in black and white in the rule book, if a dog is treed the judge can put 5 min on your dog. If at anytime during that 5 you want to tree your dog, you have the option and a new 5 will start. This subject has been covered in the advisor as well as on here. I have yet to see a judge do this, but there is a first time for everything.

__________________
Keep your viewpoint sharp on what truly matters............... and leave everything else a blur!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1084

well thank you rob. I guess i will have a problem. I've never seen it done and i feel that if it is a rule than it should be in black and white. Until i see it in the rule book i won't believe it.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

A.L, that IS in the rule book because right in the book it says the ADVISOR columns in Bloodlines are the official rules and rule interpretations. If it is in Bloodlines it counts the same as if it was in the book because Bloodlines is considered part of the rulebook.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Camden,NC
Posts: 2719

I personaly think if it is a rule then it should be on the card or in the rule book. This advisor thing is going to cause more trouble than its worth, because whos interpitation of the rule is it. Did the rules committee rule on it?? Is everyone going to carry a advisor book with them in the hunts??? I'm about to give up on doing MOH because this is totaly ridiculas (spw) but a rule is a rule and should be in the rule book....plain and simple.

If you want a stationary rule fine with me, but write it up as such because rule 9 states its my job to tell the judge when my dog strikes and tree's, and if he is not treeing right (I know him better than anyone else) then I'm not going to tree him, I also know my dog will tree in a hole for about 7 minutes then leave, so am I going to tree him?????? NO, but I have yet to see this rule in black and white (print) only what somone else thinks it means, and I for one don't interpit it that way, if you want a rule spend the money to print new rule books and make it a rule.

I'm not a lawyer, but this spells trouble with a capitol "T" for future events. Hope I'm wrong

__________________
Take a Child Hunting, and you will never forget it !!

GR NIte CH GR CH'PR' Dalton & Haucks BluRidge Lynn

GR Nite CH GR CH'PR' Southland's So Blue Queen

GR NIte Ch Rogers Blue Molly

Nite CH GR CH'PR' Daltons BluRidge Pat (Full liitermate brother to Smokey II)

Nite CH GR CH GR W CH'PR' Hauck's Carlolina Star

Nite CH GR CH'PR' Southland's Blue Queen II (Daughter of Queen)

GR CH'PR' Southland's Blue Nancy Ann

GR CH'PR' Southland's Blue Ebony (Daughter of Ann)

Nite CH'PR' Southland's Blue River Joe (4 wins to Grand & 15 cast wins !!)

Gr Nite CH CH'PR' Blue River Little Sue (Daughter of Lynn)

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

I agree with you Mark.Sounds to me like we need to throw the rule book out the window and have ukc mail us a copy of the advisory.I too wonder if this added rule was voted and passed by the breed rules committies.I know that someone has to settle a complaint if one is filed but this advisory thing is simply one person's opinion of how to apply a rule and may not be what the rules committies intended.I too believe that this advisory thing is going to cause lots of problems for the MOH at the hunts,if it is not stated in the RULES book then it shouldn't be a rule until the rules committies say put it in the book.

__________________
Friends are Cherished and Hunting is a Pleasure
Pete Miles

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

I am not arguing that this should not be a rule because I think it should or since if a dog isn't declared struck on or before the third bark after the first minute he is scratched then make it a rule that the judge can put five on the treeing dog,go to tree and if dog is actually treeing scratch the handler for not calling his dog.The only thing I am saying is IF it's not in the rule book and on the back of the card then it shouldn't be a rule.I don't have room in the pouches on my light belt to carry around all the past issues of coonhound bloodlines and couldn't lift them if I did have.Sure I could get a copy of the new book but it will change rapidly as time goes on and I would have the same problem

__________________
Friends are Cherished and Hunting is a Pleasure
Pete Miles

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Cartersville, Ga.
Posts: 337

It has been adressed. You can and should go to a dog treed and not called treed. I watched one tree for 45 minutes at an RQE and not get called. Had a possum. The advisor column has stated to clock the dog and then go score the dog. If it has a problem around the tree, will leave, only tree a possum for a short time,etc. deal with it. Make it stop. If they tree, they should be scored. Not just when you want them to be scored.

__________________
Mulberry Blue

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

Congrats to Jaydubya for the correct answer.

The Advisor column is a not-so-simple attempt to get everyone reading the rulebook the same way. They are the interpretations that UKC will use to resolve any disputes that make it as far as this office. They are official explanations of existing rules and certainly not "one person's opinion".

Take it for what it's worth. Go ahead and ignore those interpretations and good luck in your attempt to buffalo someone who does take the time to learn and understand the official interpretation. This won't "cause" problems if people learn how to use it. It will reduce the problems of everyone standing around giving their personal opinion on what to do in a particular situation. Don't like an official interpretation? Lobby for a rule change that changes or further clarifies the particular situation. I'm all for it.

This business about not doing something that's not on the scorecard is crazy. There never has been and never will be room on the scorecard to address lost scorecards, getting separated from the cast, using cell phones, moving by vehicles, and every other situation that can come up on cast. This is an attempt to do what we can to make the hunts more fair and consistent from coast to coast.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Aynor, South Carolina
Posts: 572

If it is a rule, it should be in the rules. Until then a dog can tree as long as he wants.

__________________
www.truluckkennels.homestead.com
truluckkennels@hotmail.com

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1084

I must say that i'm confused by it all. I disagree 100 % that anyone should be allowed to call my dog but me. I am against the 3 bark rule and i'm for **** sure against this one.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Most of these rules were put in place many years ago to reward the best coondog. Overall, I think the rules and the rules interpretations are oriented towards this same goal.

Now, with that in mind, why shouldn't a dog that has opened, be declared struck? Why shouldn't a dog that is obviously treed, be declared as such? To compel the handler to call his dog for close to what he's doing, there will have to be some reward/punishment involved. I would guess thats why we have these rules.

Another interesting question might be, "why were the original rules makers so strict on dogs opening but not declared and almost nothing was said about dogs treeing but not declared treed"?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

Well, that's how I always "assumed" it would be done, but I never got any official answer. If I did, it escaped me in my advancing age. It would be a good idea to get with ALL field reps and MOH's, as there is some diversity of opinion on the interpetation and it's application. You can't expect half the hunters to read is in the Advisor, and half never to have heard of it, and not expect some controversy at the hunts. Here is a good example...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Darrell,

Read my post were I ask Tank about reg. dogs running deer. We talked about this last night but I never thought about what he is saying. Mabe I'm stupid but that just blows my mind.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

The judge is not "treeing your dog". He is informing you that if you do not keep up with your responsibility of telling the judge when your dog trees (9), that in a given amount of time, he is going to go check your dog to see if it is indeed treed and if he is, score him accordingly. I mean, this is still about scoring dogs and awarding the best dog that night right? If the dog leaves, shuts up, whatever, he won't be penalized and the judge will tell the handler that the handler must really know his dog well and what a fine decision he made not to tree him.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

OK, now that makes mucho sense, and was how Mr. Cavenar explained it at the Zone, which I found sensible. However, this if the first time I can recall it being said officially as to exactly what is taking place. It says in the Advisor that the judge is to inform the handler he is starting the 5 on the dog "just as if the handler had treed him". That implies a lot, at least to me. Thanks for the clarification. That makes perfectly logical sense to me...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2147

Jaydoubledoya-- Go to the head of the class.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 192

Well as for the rule I still disagree one hundred percent and cannot find it written in stone. I really think that if the judge is allowed to do so then it would be written in the rule book, but apparently the rule book doesn't mean anything and the adviser is now GOD. And as for the post where joey asks tank about dogs running a deer. If your dog is struck in and then runs a deer by you HE WILL BE MINUSED. Tank answered that open registered dogs could not be minused on off game. If this is true then will a dog receive circle points for treeing A possum.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged