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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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UKC Top Producer List

The value of of UKC's monthly Top Producers Sires list could be argued endlessly but taking it for whatever it is, what percentage of title reproduction does it take in your own mind to be considered a successfull producer of quality pups. 6%? 7%? 8?
The top 10 for current sires ranges from a low of .54%(Plotts) to a high of 13.41%(Bluetick). So, where's your line between a successfull producer and a yawner? Does it depend on which breed you are looking at? Is 6% above the line for an English but below your line for a Walker? Or is your line the same across the board?
Keep in mind here we are talking in terms of the UKC Top Producers list and not really anything else just for the sake of conversation.

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Old Post 01-19-2011 07:07 PM
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Virgil
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I would say around 10 should be a good number. Especially when you consider that a lot of pups out of any stud will either not be competition hunted or not be given an honest chance to make a coondog.

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Old Post 01-19-2011 07:27 PM
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Christy
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THE WAY THE % ON REPRODUCERS LIST IS FIGURED NEEDS TO BE ALTERED, TO BE FIGURED JUST ON PERMANENTLY REGISTERED OFFSPRING.

NOT ON TOTAL NUMBER OF PUPS PRODUCE, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HUNT A DOG THAT IS NOT PERMANENTLY REGISTERED.

IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO FIGURE THE # OF TITLED % ON ALL DOGS PRODUCED. USUALLY OVER 1/2 ARENT EVEN REGISTERED, AND THAT WOULD REALLY SHOW THE TRUE REPRODUCERS IF THEY FIGURED IT LIKE THAT.

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Old Post 01-19-2011 07:50 PM
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Ben Crocker
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Location: Michigan
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quote:
Originally posted by Christy
THE WAY THE % ON REPRODUCERS LIST IS FIGURED NEEDS TO BE ALTERED, TO BE FIGURED JUST ON PERMANENTLY REGISTERED OFFSPRING.

NOT ON TOTAL NUMBER OF PUPS PRODUCE, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HUNT A DOG THAT IS NOT PERMANENTLY REGISTERED.

IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO FIGURE THE # OF TITLED % ON ALL DOGS PRODUCED. USUALLY OVER 1/2 ARENT EVEN REGISTERED, AND THAT WOULD REALLY SHOW THE TRUE REPRODUCERS IF THEY FIGURED IT LIKE THAT.

Make a good point Christy

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Old Post 01-19-2011 07:59 PM
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Okie Dawg
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Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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In the working dog world of drug,bomb, ect. the trainers will go threw several litters of the best bred dog around giveing them puppy test to determin if the pup will respond to there training program. Most run each pup threw the same training procedure as the rest. So they have to all train prettymuch alike. They may test several litters to find 2-3 they can use.
In the hunting world I would the reproduceing records don't mean much. You would have to know were the dogs went, what there training methods were, Did those methods match the behavioral traits of that pup, how many died and a lot of other factors. I would come closer to looking at the breeder and how his personaly trained dogs do and what ticniques he uses to train. Then ask myself if I train pretty much the same way.
As far as percent I allway figured there is one outstanding pup in each well bred litter on average. If there split up at an early age you may up that. That is why I like to get mine at 4 weaks and control what happens to it from then on.
Not trying to dis the program. That is just how I figure it. If you figure 1 litter of 10 and one got in a good home. The rest didn't get hunted that gives you 10 % success rate. If you breed to 100 bitches it makes it a lot harder to see that even one in each litter makes it to compitent hands. You would have to find 100 people that would train the dog and take them to comp. hunts.
Now figure the amount of bitchs getting bred and how many are left in comp. hunts these days.
Only way I would look at percentages is if a person kept his pups and attleast well started them before they left the place.

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Old Post 01-19-2011 08:01 PM
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roughcreek
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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: munfordville ky.
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jim

we must be on the same page today. i been sittin here studying all breeds reproducers list for about an hour & a half.

1 dog on there, 423 pups, 1 ntch. 0.24%

now i'm a firm believer in the ukc reproducers list & a high % on dogs P.A.D. dont have to make the list but a high percentage. my beleaf is the more high percentage reproducing males & females i can stack in a 3 generation pedegree the higher my chances are to produce a litter of good pups no matter where the genes come from. i feel anything past 3 generations is so watered down for consistancy that it dont really matter.

to me people can take an all grand pedegree of low percentage dogs with no degrees or low percentage's & its that much more of a crap shoot to get a consistant litter of pups that will make it.

most people breed to a dog. i want to breed for what that dog reproduced !! the only tool we got is reproducers list & more important P.A.D. on dogs that did not make the list.

i linebreed my dogs & only use a couple other strains of dogs to keep the traits i like & dont hardly go out of this blood for fear of screwing up what i got. when i breed my dogs i breed for myself & could care less about anybody else.

black dogs males 7% females 15% & above but i will use a little lower percentage.

the one thing i dont agree with about historical reproducers list is, it is based off # of pups produced. what does that tell us other than that dog made a bunch of pups some with very low percentages !! i would much rather have the list of dogs that made the current reproducers list at one time with less pups BUT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE in that breed. there are several well known dogs on that list with pitifull percentages that we might have to look at for 25 years that aint tellin us nothing. while there is others that might have produced 100 to 200 pups with a real high percentage that we can use for back grounds in breeding !!

just my opionion & you know what they say about opinions !!

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Old Post 01-19-2011 08:42 PM
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Lee Currens Jr.
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never thought about it,1or 2% could be enough if the pups
were winning the right hunts.

Last edited by Lee Currens Jr. on 01-19-2011 at 09:06 PM

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Old Post 01-19-2011 09:04 PM
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truly
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All pups should be considered for the percentages. A pup that isn't even impressive enough to get you to send in the $20 that it takes to permanently register it is a FAIL. It should be counted as a fail. If you get your pup raised up, permanently registered, and it never does tree a coon despite many nights of hunting and exposure to coon, it should be considered a FAIL and counted into the percentages as such. If you have your dog registered, trained, and enter it in hunts and it can win enough casts to earn NtCh degree then that is great, but to not count all of the dogs that were culled before they were even registered, is to be in total denial of the FAIL rate of any given breeding.
Different studs have different likelyhood of getting their pups into the "right" hands. But if you look at a stud that has reproduced over 100 pups, even if those pups didn't get to the "right" people, the "right" people would be hearing about those pups [word travels even among pleasure/hide hunters] and would be buying them, or breeding their females to that stud. So even a stud that has a hard time getting their pups out there at first, if they are any good, they will eventually get there.
With the stud that I promoted that made the list [Credit River Tucker] even though we live outside the "mainstream" of the coon hunting world, and we weren't able to break into the market selling pups into the comp world, enough of his pups still turned out, that he was able to maintain a solid percentage.

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Old Post 01-19-2011 09:45 PM
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roughcreek
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truly, my thoughts exactly on counting all pups.

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Old Post 01-19-2011 10:19 PM
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Joey
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I think that they should all be counted. I go thru a lot of pups trying to find one that will satisfy me. I don't permanently register them until they make it and they don't leave my yard if they don't make it. In the last 20 years I haven't permanently registered very many of them if that tells you anything. So those pups should go against the reproduction record of their sire and dam. They all got a fair shake and just didn't make it.

To Jim's question for me it depends if I'm talking about a male or female. A male I can live with between 10 to 15 % a female needs to be around 30%.

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jculler8
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quote:
Originally posted by Christy
THE WAY THE % ON REPRODUCERS LIST IS FIGURED NEEDS TO BE ALTERED, TO BE FIGURED JUST ON PERMANENTLY REGISTERED OFFSPRING.

NOT ON TOTAL NUMBER OF PUPS PRODUCE, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HUNT A DOG THAT IS NOT PERMANENTLY REGISTERED.

IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO FIGURE THE # OF TITLED % ON ALL DOGS PRODUCED. USUALLY OVER 1/2 ARENT EVEN REGISTERED, AND THAT WOULD REALLY SHOW THE TRUE REPRODUCERS IF THEY FIGURED IT LIKE THAT.



ELEM STATISTICS 101, but I'm not even gonna get on a math rant here today too.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 01:29 AM
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JB PITCREW
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Just for conversation....

Do you guys think UKC should include the HTX Degrees that offspring earn in the percentage somehow?

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Old Post 01-20-2011 01:29 AM
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Dwils
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Re: Just for conversation....

quote:
Originally posted by JB PITCREW
Do you guys think UKC should include the HTX Degrees that offspring earn in the percentage somehow?


good question

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JiM
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Re: Just for conversation....

quote:
Originally posted by JB PITCREW
Do you guys think UKC should include the HTX Degrees that offspring earn in the percentage somehow?



Of course not. The HTX is not a title. Even UKC will tell you HTX is not a title.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 03:34 AM
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truly
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Re: Just for conversation....

quote:
Originally posted by JB PITCREW
Do you guys think UKC should include the HTX Degrees that offspring earn in the percentage somehow?
Whether or not HTX is a title or degree, it is too new to be of much use in comparing reproduction. Maybe someday in the future?
I don't know how easy it is for UKC to pull up data that they use for the lists, but if it is fairly easy then I would like to see UKC mix it up a bit- how about a current list that is based on totals and a historical based on percentages? How about showing historical if you went back 10 more years? How about showing current with a total of 50 pups rather than 100? The criteria for the list is rather arbitrary, it isn't as if the way it is done is the way it always has to be, and considering that who is on the list is rather static- they tend to change slowly and incrementally, it wouldn't do any harm to show other scenarios of how one might decide who the best reproducer is.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 04:27 AM
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John D
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I don't think the actual % is as important as the ranking within the breed. If 5% in one breed gets a dog 1st place and doesn't crack the top 10 for another breed, thats not comparing apples to apples.

What matters is the dog is in __ place for his breed. The door is WIDE OPEN for someone else to do it better, and they didn't.

You have to remember some breeds, like Plotts, have a terrible time getting pups into comp. hunters hands, whereas walkers will get in better hands to get titled just because they are walkers. This skews the numbers between the breeds, imo.

Another thing that skews the numbers is some guys are running title factories. They haul dogs relentlessly to every little po-dunk, 3 dog hunt. Ever notice that some men just seem to have GrNtCh's pop out of nowhere? You seldom see their dogs competing well in other locations or at a high level. So, a good percentage on their line doesn't mean as much as a good percentage on a line that gets titled across the country, by a alot of different people and at bigger hunts. Just something to consider. jmo.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 04:44 AM
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e.t.sawyerjr
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%

i like the way ukc figuries the %.

if you do like it take a few mimutes to do your own caculations.

i do a calucation on the % of pups producted to the number per. registered. a dog with a low % on this computation makes me wounder about his reproduction abbility, after knowing how old the dog is. however in the plotts that calutation is questionable because a lot of them are big game hunted and never registered. i have two now that will not be per. registered even if they make good bear dogs. i buy my plotts pups now by word of mouth.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 07:30 AM
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plottpower
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I cant speak for the other breeds but in the plott breed these percentages mean NOTHING, i say this because look how many plotts go to big game hunters and never to get registered or get registered and never put in a hunt at all.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 11:28 AM
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midnite2010
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why not with the HTX it would show u what dog is throwin dogs that can tree a coon on there own somethin else to help u with decidin what the other pups thats not being comp hunted is makin

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Old Post 01-20-2011 03:51 PM
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JiM
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midnite, you guys crack me up with your insinuations that an HTX degree proves a dog can tree a coon alone while a UKC hunt title doesn't mean a thing. Tell yah what, go out an try hunt titling your dog without it ever treeing a coon and report back on your success.
Anyone who can title a dog in UKC without treeing a coon will also put the HTX on their dog without treeing a coon.

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hunter105
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I like the way UKC figures I just wish they would tighten the rules by not figuring Nite Champions only Grands, my thinking is, that is when a coondog has truly proven itself as a finished hound! Some areas of the country don't have desent numbers at events to justify a nite champion as a finished hound. That small change would completely change the reproducers list. I also agree that so many hounds are not entered or never given a fair shake at earning titles.

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Dwils
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quote:
Originally posted by hunter105
I like the way UKC figures I just wish they would tighten the rules by not figuring Nite Champions only Grands, my thinking is, that is when a coondog has truly proven itself as a finished hound! Some areas of the country don't have desent numbers at events to justify a nite champion as a finished hound. That small change would completely change the reproducers list. I also agree that so many hounds are not entered or never given a fair shake at earning titles.







One of the nicest dogs i can think of that everyone knows around here is NItech SAVAGE SON............owned by Tom Lechlitner......Son has 4 wins and the last hunt he was in he scored 1000+ and was beat by 1025+........he has scored many high scores, only to be slightly beaten . he is 10 times the dog many of these finished big named dogs are

Look at alot of the top PKC dogs , they are Nitech's in ukc, but have won thousands in pkc.

Titles do not matter to me, they dont make a dog tree any more coon than he did to start with. and he is still the same do before he had any title at all

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midnite2010
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i was just sayin that would b another way to show what a dog is reproducin and dwho said that hunt titles dont mean a thing cause i sure didnt if u dont want opinions or thoughts then dont ask for one

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Old Post 01-20-2011 04:55 PM
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Larry Atherton
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Truly,

I have to respectfully disagree with the statement if a pup isn't registered it is a fail. I have sold pups to many big game hunters who never register their dog, but they keep it and are satisfied with it. In addition to that I have sold several finished dogs over the years and lost track of them due to people not registering them. This includes dogs with titles.

I have also sold pups who have had accidental deaths before the new owner registered them.

Either way the numbers are there. If you want to know the % for all pups it is given. If you want to know the % for permanent registered pups it is a simple case of subtraction and then division x 100.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 04:58 PM
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ml2543
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 293

Re: Just for conversation....

quote:
Originally posted by JB PITCREW
Do you guys think UKC should include the HTX Degrees that offspring earn in the percentage somehow?


I think they should. Maybe change the HTX Degree where you have to complete 3 hunt tests to get the HTX degree.

Because you have to pass the test to get the degree and it the same as going to a night hunt and being the only dog in the cast. So if you go to a hunt and dont have any other dogs in the cast this is pretty much the samething as a hunt test.

There are clubs out there that dont get very many dogs. So you could very easy get a NTCH dog that has never hunted with another dog.

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Old Post 01-20-2011 06:16 PM
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