Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 330

I am so sick
of people talking about handler made dogs! There is no such thing! There is one set of rules that we all have to go by, its not a handlers fault that he knows them better than you!

Last edited by Mike Fields on 10-21-2010 at 12:12 PM

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: long branch
Posts: 158

Yep and i am pretty tired of people that act like it is not happening.Come on fella are you serious?Some folks like to see the best dog win not the person with the most ability to twist rules to their liken.After all it is about the dogs.Maybe ukc should invent a board game like trival pursuit for all the guys with great knowledge of the rules.They could sit at the club house and argue and the guys who want the best dog to win could hit the timber and enjoy their hunt.

Last edited by russ hayes on 10-21-2010 at 11:54 AM

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

All I can say is that there are plenty of "Champion" dogs that most coon hunters would not hunt if they were given to them. I have seen some Grand Nite Champions that were worthless as tits on a boar. I reckon they were "handler made" dogs.

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Dave Haugh

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Park Rapids, MN
Posts: 246

I bought a nitech black dog from fred....I won't say his last name, in wisconsin a few years back. NITECH Jingling JR supposedly got three firsts, in the rain, and was the only dog treeing coons. When I went down to buy him, there was "too much snow" to go coonhunting, so I bought him with a garauntee.

I got home and this NITECH dog, and he didn't know what hunting was. I carried this dog to the woods dozens of time over several months and he never left my feet. The garauntee was never honored, so here's my question...How did a dog that didn't know how to hunt get "3 firsts"? I say he got them at the club house or waffle house down the street! He was definitely a handler made dog.

And no, it wasn't just some dog with a set of other dogs papers, the guy a got him from was supposedly a reputable guy, and very popular in the black and tan breed, not a dog trader. Just a liar.

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Drew Kincaid
Park Rapids, MN
218-252-3432

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Aound here everyone that cares about titles hunts in the hunts or guides or participates in some manner. They see and hunt with everything around here that is getting titled or trying to get a title. You can ask any coonhunter about any dog showing up in the hunts and you get an opinion that others may agree with or not but one thing is for sure, if a dog got titled in this part of the country without hunting, EVERYBODY would know about it. The nite hunt people in this area are a close knit community and there ain't no secrets when it comes to dogs.

It's always the thing to rage about the GrNt that won't hunt and was made at the waffle house. Now, step up and try that around this area.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location:
Posts: 1648

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Fields
I am so sick
of people talking about handler made dogs! There is no such thing! There is one set of rules that we all have to go by, its not a handlers fault that he knows them better than you!

---

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2963

In many ways, I would agree with that statement, Mike. Handlers can't make them run a track faster or split tree, take pressure have a coon tree dogs. It's usually bred into them to be that way or hunting them a lot by themselves to help make them that way.

Light breaking a dog is one area that I think a trainer can change a dog to save taking minus. I'm talking about hearing a dog coming into you and a handler flips his light on and the dog makes a quick u-turn and disappears. Or you hear sh!t going on at a tree or a fight, but when the lights get there, everything stops and they're all little "angels". Like I said, just my opinion. Take care, Ron.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5586

I think part of the problem is UKC and all the others try to stop the whineing with MORE rules. Tell the whiners tough and get on with it. Simplify the rules. If you are all about winning learn them well becouse they aren't all followed at small hunts. You have to study them and use them on your training nights in the woods. While you are training your dog do it with a buddy and practice calling your dog and keeping score. Take a score card and make copies.
If it doesn't mean that much to you. Just go to the hunts and have fun and listen to the pro's whine becouse the fun/ ammutures show up. I love it becoue they hate people like me that is just there to have a good time but they wouldn't have any clubs with out our entry. LOL

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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Made one mistake. Might not be the pros that hate us. Might be the want to be's. I don't know if I have ever been in the woods or spoke to a pro becouse I don't know who they are. lol

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808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1839

The few hunts I have been in were enjoyable except one. There was a guy that had a sorry excuse for a coondog but he wanted the win real bad. It still wasn't all that bad though even with him because the other 2 were enjoyable to hunt with. To me the rules are written with too much "lawyer talk" and are harder to understand than they probably really are.

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Al Tarantella

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: central Ill.
Posts: 7

Thats why you need to get a plott dog they don't have to have handler help they just do it on their own and show you the coon.

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If you want to cheat get a walker.
If you want to stay out all night get a bluetick
If you want to win get you a PLOTT

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: North GA.
Posts: 1226

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
All I can say is that there are plenty of "Champion" dogs that most coon hunters would not hunt if they were given to them. I have seen some Grand Nite Champions that were worthless as tits on a boar. I reckon they were "handler made" dogs.

---

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

JiM, I am glad it is the way you say it is in your area. But, you are in just one area and I can guarentee you it is not the same everywhere. I know of dogs that have never been in the state where their titles were won. And, some clubs are much more honest than others, some casts are much more honest than others, and some hunters are much more honest than others. Some registeries are much better run than others. And, it is the same with beagles and squirrel dogs as well as coon hounds. An "All Grand" pedigree probably has as many phonies as real coon dogs. Someone that bases their breeding program on titles and not dogs they hunted with are probably getting fooled. There are some registries that turn a blind eye to some obvious cheaters. Heck, there are World Championships won by guys that are barred from other registries. I won't mention any names. LOL.

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Dave Haugh

LAKELAND KENNELS
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English Coonhounds
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Gr Ch Lakeland's Phoebe
PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
____________________________
Mt Curs
____________________________
Ch SqCh Lakeland's Lucy
SqCh Lakeland's Goldie
SqCh Lakeland's Kate
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Beagles
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Dual GrCh Blank's Midnight
GrCh HBCh Lakeland's Cricket II

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

I don't doubt what you are saying Dave. There have been dogs that couldn't earn a title in this area that were sent out of state and came back shortly there after with a title. I have always felt that was a real statement about how the hunts in this area are being run.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

If you pay your entry fee, you are accepting the responsibility to make sure that the card that returns to the club house is correct.

For nite hunts to work there has to be rules. To create a level playing field those rules must be followed period. If a dog gets beat because one handler knows the rules better than another, I got news for you they did not cheat. Nite hunts are a team competition. The team consist of a handler and a hound.

Guess what? No game or competition is not without its faults. It doesn't matter if it is hockey, basketball, football, basebal, or nite huntsl. The best does not always win!!!!!!

If you can not accept that fact of life you should not be competition hunting. Grow up and quit whinning. As I have stated before if you are not part of the solution, guess what? You are part of the problem!

If you believe the hunts to be crooked then step-up be a responsible adult and do something about it.

Sorry, it is hard enough listening to my kids whine, I just can't stand it when adults do it! By the way, my kids do not whine when I am within reach because I don't let them get away with it either.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6868

Larry,,,

name me one other sport where the officials consist of the playing field?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

There are well proven means to deal with all issues. The fact is few will step up and do the right thing other than whine.

I have heard the excuse about hunting judges, but I don't accept it for one reason and one reason only. I have had more bad nonhunting judges than I have hunting judges. You know what if you are concerned about a huntinig judge ... step up be responsible and take that dang card!!!!!

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6868

Larry,,,

You cannot step up and take that dang card! The MOH/ Hunt director PRE SELECTS the judge for each cast. Therefore if they don't like you you sure as shooten ain't gettin the card!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

When you pay and hand in your entry slip tell them that you will judge. Unless you already have a reputation I bet you will start getting the card.

I know that is what I did many years ago. Now days, I usually get the card whether I say anything or not.

You will not change things over night, but you can at least make a difference in one cast at a time.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5586

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Atherton
If you pay your entry fee, you are accepting the responsibility to make sure that the card that returns to the club house is correct.

For nite hunts to work there has to be rules. To create a level playing field those rules must be followed period. If a dog gets beat because one handler knows the rules better than another, I got news for you they did not cheat. Nite hunts are a team competition. The team consist of a handler and a hound.

Guess what? No game or competition is not without its faults. It doesn't matter if it is hockey, basketball, football, basebal, or nite huntsl. The best does not always win!!!!!!

If you can not accept that fact of life you should not be competition hunting. Grow up and quit whinning. As I have stated before if you are not part of the solution, guess what? You are part of the problem!

If you believe the hunts to be crooked then step-up be a responsible adult and do something about it.

Sorry, it is hard enough listening to my kids whine, I just can't stand it when adults do it! By the way, my kids do not whine when I am within reach because I don't let them get away with it either.

---

__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location:
Posts: 43

Holdddddddddddddddddd up there Mr.LARRY. First of all you cannot control what happens in the other casts only the one you're in . But there is alot of bad things happening and have reported it and nothing done about it. Know way TOO MUCH to say on this site but cain't say . I will say this tho why catch the little fish when there is big ones to fry ................Don't get no bigger than this fish I'm talking about.

Last edited by OLD HENRY on 10-21-2010 at 09:01 PM

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 636

quote:

---

Originally posted by allgrandplotman
Thats why you need to get a plott dog they don't have to have handler help they just do it on their own and show you the coon.

---

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location:
Posts: 262

Ive seen more cheaters lose casts then I ever seen win..lol. If the system is flawed its like saying that 75 percent of hunters at these events are crooked.. If the majority of a cast lets one person get away with cheating for 2 hours they deserve to lose..

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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Climax, NC
Posts: 375

I hate it when I am judging and the handler tries to convince me that the tree should be circled cause the coon could have climbed a limb about 1/4" in diameter, over to the next tree. When I have no doubt that the tree is slick.

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Clint Crawford
Tall Pine Kennels
Climax, NC


Member of Golden Triangle Coon Club

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Registered: May 2005
Location: Pinconning,Mi
Posts: 1323

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Atherton
If you pay your entry fee, you are accepting the responsibility to make sure that the card that returns to the club house is correct.

For nite hunts to work there has to be rules. To create a level playing field those rules must be followed period. If a dog gets beat because one handler knows the rules better than another, I got news for you they did not cheat. Nite hunts are a team competition. The team consist of a handler and a hound.

Guess what? No game or competition is not without its faults. It doesn't matter if it is hockey, basketball, football, basebal, or nite huntsl. The best does not always win!!!!!!

If you can not accept that fact of life you should not be competition hunting. Grow up and quit whinning. As I have stated before if you are not part of the solution, guess what? You are part of the problem!

If you believe the hunts to be crooked then step-up be a responsible adult and do something about it.

Sorry, it is hard enough listening to my kids whine, I just can't stand it when adults do it! By the way, my kids do not whine when I am within reach because I don't let them get away with it either.

---

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Steve Beson
Pinconning MI

Last edited by RRbluehound on 10-22-2010 at 11:21 AM

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