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KotaGSD
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 100

Interest in Earth Dog Events

I would like to know if UKC would consider adding an Earth Dog program? Many of the terrier breeds are the "underground" hunters and it's always great see a dog do what it's bred to do.

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Old Post 11-17-2009 01:50 PM
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Tarascon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 821

While I think it would be fine if UKC did start a go to ground/earthdog/den trial type activity, it's not hunting, it's a game.

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Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhound!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~

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Old Post 11-17-2009 10:34 PM
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Liz
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location:
Posts: 7

Yvonne is so correct. Earth Dog is a game and is in no way any indication of whether or not a terrier will hunt. The only way to evaluate whether a terrier will actually enter the ground and work live quarry is to hunt them.

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Old Post 11-18-2009 02:33 AM
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KotaGSD
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 100

Excuse me for not using politically correct wording. This is a test in a controlled environment similar to dock diving or terrier racing, or herding instinct. It is also an alternative activity for urban terrier owners who don't have the option of an open hunt. It is ridiculus to say that the only way to test your dog is to take them out and hunt them. Liz, maybe you haven't attended an earth dog event but the terriers do go to ground and work live quarry.

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Tyler & Tami Lopes
Kasie Lopes [UKC Top Ten Jr, 2007/6th, 2008/9th, 2009/4th, 2010/HM, 2011/HM)

CH Posey Canyon Princesattitude, CGC, SE
CH Mitern's Willie Wonka
GRCH Mitern's Little Gamble
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Old Post 11-18-2009 06:03 PM
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Tarascon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 821

Earthdog is an activity in a very controlled environment. The dogs run through man-made 9" tunnels. The tame rats in a cage behind bars are at the end of the tunnel for the terriers to bark at. It's a game, it's fun for evryone, but it bears no resemblance to actual hunting. It's therefore not a test of hunting instinct, it is a test of whether the dog will run through a man made tunnel and bark at a rat. That's it.

I've participated in go to grounds and hunting for years. I have been a go to ground judge in two different venues. Many terriers will play this game but will not enter the earth out in the real world. Many that do actually hunt will not do earthdog.

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Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhound!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~

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Old Post 11-18-2009 07:48 PM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 551

And yet they'd still get to do terrier-like things and bark at a rat. The harm in someone enjoying this event would be . . . ? Someone help me out here . . .

Herding trials are controlled events, too, but they're pretty well accepted as being something that people who own herding dogs should do--not everyone has the opportunity to work their terrier for real, for Heaven's sake and if people would enjoy it, what would be the harm?

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Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and UKC Ch. UAG1 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, NA, NAJ, CGC
AKC Ch. And UKC GRC La Isla's Wickfair Watersprite, #7 Toy Fox Terrier 2011
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Bay Toys Kyrie Eleison
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RIP Roger Dodger Over and Out. Your time on this Earth was far too short. God bless and God speed.

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Old Post 11-19-2009 01:21 AM
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Tarascon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 821

No harm in particpating in the tunnel and rat game. It's fun. I like letting mine play, I love judging. Just please don't assume that it proves anything about a terrier's hunting ability.

__________________
Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhound!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~

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Old Post 11-19-2009 02:58 AM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 551

And there is absolutely no reason to be condescending in your opinion about what other people enjoy. You might believe that it proves nothing about instinct--I'd like to see your data on that position. In any case, you've said what you've needed to say. Would you now please be courteous and allow people who might enjoy the event to participate in the thread without fear of being mocked?

__________________
Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and UKC Ch. UAG1 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, NA, NAJ, CGC
AKC Ch. And UKC GRC La Isla's Wickfair Watersprite, #7 Toy Fox Terrier 2011
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Bay Toys Kyrie Eleison
U-Ch. 'PR' Stardust Saints Geaux Marching
Showboat Saintsational Season, HT

RIP Roger Dodger Over and Out. Your time on this Earth was far too short. God bless and God speed.

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Old Post 11-19-2009 03:21 AM
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Tarascon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 821

I've hunted my terriers AND done go to ground with them for over twenty years. As I stated, I like both activities. I'm not being condescending or mocking anyone. Herding trials use real sheep in a real field going through real gates. The truth is that a rat in a cage at the end of a wooden tunnel and a fox in the ground are two different things entirely and the only way to test a terrier's hunting ability is in the field. Period.

__________________
Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhound!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~

Last edited by Tarascon on 11-19-2009 at 03:41 AM

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Old Post 11-19-2009 03:31 AM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 551

Wow, I just don't know what to say. If you don't want to participate yourself, then don't. I think we'd all agree that's best. But the rat is in the cage for both safety reasons and economic reasons--the herding dogs don't kill the sheep to win their trials and if the terriers had to it would probably cause a steep decline in clubs being able to hold trials.

Can you please, having already expressed your contempt for the event, allow other people to express their opinion without jumping on them. You don't want the event--that's fine--but other people might want to express their enthusiasm for the event and find themselves put off by your vehemence.

I'm just asking for a little respect here.

Personally, I think it's a great idea. Until I see data on the event not being a test of a terrier's ability to use its nose and its instinct, then I'll chose to believe that it at least shows my dog can do something other than chase a ball or look pretty.

__________________
Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and UKC Ch. UAG1 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, NA, NAJ, CGC
AKC Ch. And UKC GRC La Isla's Wickfair Watersprite, #7 Toy Fox Terrier 2011
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Bay Toys Kyrie Eleison
U-Ch. 'PR' Stardust Saints Geaux Marching
Showboat Saintsational Season, HT

RIP Roger Dodger Over and Out. Your time on this Earth was far too short. God bless and God speed.

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Old Post 11-19-2009 04:03 AM
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Tarascon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 821

Please show me where I showed contempt for the event. Please show me where I jumped on someone. Please show me where I was vehement. Please show me where I displayed a lack of respect. Please show me where I said I would not participate.

I've said that I've been involved with this activity for years, enjoy it, love judging it, think that it would be fine if UKC decided to start a program for us. I've also stated that not all terriers that play this game will actually hunt and that not all that actually hunt will play the game, therefore it is not a test of hunting instinct or ability.

If the truth hurts your feelings, well.....better get a tougher hide.

__________________
Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhound!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~

Last edited by Tarascon on 11-19-2009 at 12:27 PM

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Old Post 11-19-2009 12:18 PM
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Kel
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2008
Location: UT/MI
Posts: 619

I thought UKC used to have a hunt/earth test for Terriers a long while back but it unfortunately met the same fate as Dog Sport recently did?

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Old Post 11-19-2009 12:51 PM
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Tarascon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 821

There was an actual hunting program for terriers, yes. It's gone.

__________________
Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhound!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~

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Old Post 11-19-2009 12:55 PM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 551

Please don't tell me that I "need to get a tougher hide." My feelings are not hurt nor am I terribly insulted. What does disturb me is the continued arrogance and condescension that some people express when confronted with a suggestion for an EVENT with which they disagree. If you don't want to participate in it, don't, but it's not necessary to hijack a suggestion thread with your disdain. I'm not sure how you can say that you haven't been contemptuous in your terminology, calling the EVENT a "game" over and over again, when clearly other people consider it to be something that at least gives the simulation of the ability to work. The GRE isn't reflective of actual skill, either, but it's considered predictive of ability and gets people into graduate school to develop that ability and turn it into a real career. Who's to say that the earthdog events might not do the same for terriers and their owners by attracting them to the idea of actually working their dogs? Even if it doesn't, though, I don't see why you'd want to discourage anyone from having or participating in an earthdog event, just because you don't feel it has actual value, when it's another means of bringing humans and dogs together in these embattled times.

If you don't think your words are condescending, contemptuous, or vehement, try reading what you've written as if it were written by someone else in regard to an event that you're really interested in or that you really enjoy participating in with your dog. Would you really want to ask questions or insert your positive opinion in a thread with the tone those posts inject? Or would you feel as if it's too combative an atmosphere?

Oh, and just an FYI: people who say, "you need to toughen up," generally realize that they've come on too strong and typically don't want to back down. Maybe it's not that I need to "toughen up," but that you need to dial it back a bit and understand that there are people on the other side of a screen that you would speak more politely to if you were confronting them face to face.

__________________
Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and UKC Ch. UAG1 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, NA, NAJ, CGC
AKC Ch. And UKC GRC La Isla's Wickfair Watersprite, #7 Toy Fox Terrier 2011
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Bay Toys Kyrie Eleison
U-Ch. 'PR' Stardust Saints Geaux Marching
Showboat Saintsational Season, HT

RIP Roger Dodger Over and Out. Your time on this Earth was far too short. God bless and God speed.

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Old Post 11-19-2009 12:58 PM
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Tarascon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 821

I was not impolite. You and I have had discussions on these boards before and it seems like everytime I read one of your posts, you are climbing someone's frame over something. Get over yourself.

__________________
Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhound!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~

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Old Post 11-19-2009 06:27 PM
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Maryanne
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 23

Interest in Earthdogs

There are other venues that offer earthdog events, like AWTA (American Working Terrier Assoc). I can't see how the UKC can put a twist on the current programs to make it different.

You can also locate a local earthdog club, that also do natural hunting. Some of that natural hunting involves urban areas. These clubs will not advertise the fact that they are involved in hunting, due to todays climate, so you may have to ask.

I, along with a small group of other dachshund & terrier owners, have done urban hunts in downtown Manhttan (NYC) at night. We'll go up some alleys, rattle some garbage cans and let the dogs loose to do what comes naturally. Last year, we were invited by the City to a local city park to help them find the rats & mice. We have also been invited to private property to help with a woodchuck or fox problem. The dogs we go with are all "City" dogs, including my own.

Just for the record, my own dachshund, who does natural hunting has yet to qualify even in Intro to Quarry. Once he figured out he could not get the rat, he had no more interest.

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Introducing:
CH Saytar's Jada Pink-It, CD. RN, NF, NAJ, NA (Std Wire Dachshund)
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Old Post 11-19-2009 08:36 PM
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gemdach
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 256

MaryAnn
Yes, Dachshunds are smart enough to to realize that they don't get the prize at the end of the den. <grin> But isn't it fun having such a smart breed???? Being involved in dogs since 1964, I have had Standard Longhairs since 1984 (and compete UKC, AKC and Canada). I love the breed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Meg Williamson
Gemdach Dachshunds

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Old Post 11-20-2009 11:49 AM
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wt puller
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2009
Location: michigan
Posts: 156

"ring" smart dogs

LOL LOL I loved that part about the dog figured out he didnt get the rat at the end and now wont do it! Just like in obeidence when the dog know's you "cant " correct them in that situation and then doesnt do the exercise!! LOL
Thanks, I loved that story!!

Meg, I have something from Canada from a dashhound club from years ago. It's made of medal and has a dashhound on it I believe. I won it in a silence auction and thought it was something else. And everytime I come across it, I think of you! I'll have to "locate" it again and remember to bring it to the shows when I can make them in hopes of catching up with you.

I dont have hounds, but any activity we can do with our K9 companons is great! And even if you do live in the city or on a farm, it's always best to have different things for us to do with them to get us to spend time with our "furkids". I hope someone can put something together and present it to Ukc to consider.

Best of luck!

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Old Post 11-20-2009 07:21 PM
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gemdach
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 256

Wtpullr.............................I would love that Dachshund item when you come across it. You can e-mail me privately when you locate it

gemdach@wideopenwest.com

Thanks.

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Old Post 11-20-2009 07:50 PM
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StoutHearted
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 69

I would like to see UKC re-start their earthdog program. There aren't any AWTA tests/trials in my area and I no longer support AKC events so the only opportunities we have to do this activity are at JRTCA playdays.

As an aside, I agree that this activity is not a test of hunting ability. It's fun and some dogs really like it, but it's not real work. The same goes for lure coursing and any other simulated test; it can only tell you so much and should not be seen as a replacement for real work. That doesn't mean that those activities shouldn't be celebrated and enjoyed it just means that they should be recognized for what they are. I think it's great that we have so many different activities available to us so that we can keep our dogs active both mentally and physically, but I do regret that many people take success in these simulations to mean that their dogs are "working dogs."

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Old Post 11-21-2009 06:06 PM
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hannahsdox
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 77

earthdog

It would be nice to have another venue offering earthdog titles. Here in NY we're close enough to Canada to go to trials in Eastern Canada and also there are several AKC clubs around offering trials.

As far as the validity of the event, that is personal opinion and preference. I have had a couple of my dachshunds wise up and learn really fast that they can never have their evil ways with that cute little rat in the cage. Those particular dogs became bored with it before they could qualify for a title.

I dont want my dogs exposed to wild animals like foxes and whatever else might be down in the natural den. I have way too much time and emotion wrapped up in these little wiener dogs.

Like I said, it would be a fun event to add to the UKC venue. Our club would certainly venture forth and hold such events since we have several members with dachshunds.

Joanne Hurst

__________________
Joanne & Darryl Hurst
Hannah's Dachshunds
Munnsville, NY

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