Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Greenleaf, WI
Posts: 839

Now, here's a couple observations I've made in my short time (relatively speaking) with coonhounds:

1. You ought to get the best dogs consistently by breeding the best to the best, right?

2. The walkers, English, and to a certain extent, Bluetickers, have crossbred dogs for decades with success and it has been an accepted practice.

Now why is it such taboo to breed a great redbone female to a top walker (or other breed) stud? And why is it not acceptable to single register a crossbred dog if it meets the redbone breed standard, like the walker men do? The last time I took a look at Jungle Jim I believe I saw a high tan dog with a white chest. And I wonder where the black muzzle came from on so many good redbones today?

Are we breeding and linebreeding ourselves into a quagmire here? Or just into obscurity? Why can't we come up with a Sackett, Jr. type reproducer? Why, when we get a magic cross every few years can we fail to continue that reproduction in their offspring? And when a great crossbred redbone does come along- and it has- why do so many people cuss the owner and the dog and refuse to breed to it?

When you speak to some of the older generation amongst ourselves, you find that many of our most highly touted hounds have a questionable ancestry.

For the record, I have never crossbred a dog in my life, but I am beginning to wonder if it wouldn't be a useful and accepable tool to replenish our gene pool. Do we need to rethink our stance on single registry?

These questions, I guess are directed toward the true redbone hunters amongst ourselves, not just show people.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 78

I talked with you on the phone the other day and although I haven't made the cross myself I like what I see so far on the walker/redbone cross I'm huntin'. It would be nice for people (redbone breeders) to not turn their nose up at a cross of this nature but the way things stand with the UKC guidelines on appearance I see their point. I'm huntin a dog that I can truthfully to the best of my knowledge state pedigree on sire and dam for 3 generations and can't single register as a redbone because it doesn't meet color requirements. This is sure to be a post that is gonna get mixed responses and people will probably not like some of the points of view. Good luck with this one Joe your gonna need it. Keep'em red even if they have white socks!!!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 828

One thing about the redbones is that if you crossbreed then many generations down the road it can come back to haunt you, like the ghost pups (from weimeraners) and the black and tan pups (from black and tan obviously) or even excessive white. Then you have a dog that can't be registered except possibly as single. I hate it when someone pollutes the gene pool.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Seymour, Missouri
Posts: 250

Joe, I've often thought about this myself, but not necessarily just for the redbone hounds.

Something I've alway's wondered was this. If a person crosses say a Redbone gyp to a Walker stud and can get pups from the cross that meets the breed color standard and they wish to single register them, I know you have to fill out a pedigree of the dogs ancestors, would it be okay to actually put down their real pedigree? Does what I just asked make sense.

That's probably a question that only the breed associations can answer, but I would like to know the answer to that one. If a person can legitamately put down a dogs ancestory without making it up, I don't see a problem with makeing outcrosses. Yeah sure you'll get a few pups down the road that won't meet breed color standards and will have to be culled or not papered, but the only thing that I personally feel will save the coonhound in the long run is to do some outcrosses. If anyone wants to know why I feel that way, we'll have to start a different thread to get that opinion.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

I would love to hear an answer to Mr. Harris's questions about putting down the correct ancestors on a single registered hound.
I have two red/waker females here that are 6 months old and both would meet the breed standard as they only have a little white on their chest. I personally don't have any intentions of trying to single register them as redbones as they are Crossbred hounds to me and I have them registered as crossbred hounds with another registery and they will be hunted as crossbred hounds. If they win then they will be a feather in the cap for crossbred hounds--if they are worthless then they will also speak for their breeding in that manner.

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Boss Lights
San Mateo, Fl

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 511

I think it would work as far as posting the pedigree if you dig out some of your older bloodlines look for a english dog called bad lands pedro and look as his bloodline he shows house clint and McKnight Rex in his pedigree that they show in the book I have always wonde if that was the pedigee ukc had on file.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

Doug I respect and hear what you are saying but---I think if the truth was known a lot of walkers from days past would have something in them besides walker coonhound blood. I cannot prove this and I sure ain't going to argue over it and yes I hunt Walkers and have fo 30 years.
Doug think about this and maybe this is something Little Joe is pointing to---Look at the coonhound breeds and lets just discuss the big 6 here--no curs.
They are:
Walkers
Black and Tans
Blueticks
English
Redbones
Plotts
Now start sorting through them and look at the ones that have strict color standards that keep outside blood or cross bred hounds to a minimum.
Now start sorting them using numbers and winning stastics.
Your two list would be exaclty inverse.
Yes breeding hounds using a restricted gene pool that is goverened by color is not the best way to reporduce a large number of competive hounds or even your best hounds. On the other hand if cross breeding became too prevelant I also feel things could go down hill fast.

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I agree!!!

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Boss Lights
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Greenleaf, WI
Posts: 839

Lynn, by crossbreeding redbones, we are not "polluting" the gene pool, as you say. We are using it as a tool to reinvigurate a stale and redundant gene pool. This question was posed to true redbone hunters. People who sincerely want to see the breed continue to improve. If you own Redbones, you own crossbred dogs in the pedigree. Guaranteed. Ask some of the true old timers amongst us that are left, about some of the titled dogs in there, maybe way back, and you will see.

It is believed that Timber Chopper was part cur dog, that Amos and Timber Jack threw a few black and tans. It happens. I don't find it "haunting" in the least.

Doug, give me a break. Tim Ball, for one, has advertised breeding a good blue female to Stylish Harry. There are plenty of others, and no, you may not see it widespread, but crossbreeding is a tool that has been used with success, ie: Hayes Hardtime Speck. You misquoted me when you wrote that I suggested Sackett Jr was a product of crossbreeding. I believe I made note of him because he was a remarkable reproducer, the likes of which the Redbone breeds have never seen. By statistic, in the past 27 years, there has been one that could be considered above the rest in producing titled hounds- Ramblin' Red Ace. Anybody ever heard he was white from neck to belly? I have.

Bruce, great response as always. You hang onto those little "reds" and keep me posted. I assume they are off Boss.

UKC has no bearing on the single registry policies of the breeds. It is up to the chartered breed associations. Some breeds allow you to use the actual ancestry on the papers. Redbones you can not. That is the REAL question posed.

Let me rephrase the original question: "If a redbone dog meets the breed standard, should he be able to be registered with the correct lineage recorded?"

Where are all the redbone people out there? You mean to tell me this isn't a worthwhile subject? Like always, more heads buried in the sand. Stand up and be counted! It doesn't matter what your opinions are- just have one.

Where's mtnman, Sawblade, Brent where are you? Red Sunset? Mike? Everyone else?

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: MI
Posts: 63

Go with your gut Joe,
You know what a coon dog is. I have been wondering when you would break out the Halloween costums again LOL, I have heard of throwbacks within the redbone breed and I also have heard Ace was off of another color bitch. Ace is also something that can be good to have in a pedigree. I am sure there are breeders that seek Ace blood. So how's Sage?
Kelly

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

I'm no redbone hunter but since nobody else ever minds their own business (or breed) on these boards, I guess I don't need to, either, lol.

It doesn't surprise me there would be cur, b&T and a whole bunch of other stuff in some of the famous Redbones of the past. I never got sucked in by the "these are true hounds" crap. I think that pretty much holds true for all the coonhound breeds. A pure hound was NOT a treedog and not too awful many years ago, either. Something had to change to make them want to hold a tree. So, other stuff was brought in and can still be brought in, and now we have to decide how much is enough. That job is up to the breed associations, as far as I can tell.

I've single registered a hound and I remember filling out that 3 generation pedigree with the names of those dogs, as best I could come up with. I don't want to get barred for what I'm about to say, but the inspector looked me in the eye and asked me if those were really the names of those dogs. I said, "as far as I'm concerned they are". Then, the inspector goes on to tell me he told Fred Miller, President/owner of UKC, that these dogs were getting single registered and people didn't know their true ancestry. Fred said something to the effect that he figured that, but didn't want to know about it. I know firsthand that Wayne Cavanaugh is not against bringing in outside blood to a breed, to save its characteristics, as long as its done HONESTLY.

So, there we have it, the precedent has been set, if we knew so much about a grade dog or a mutt dog's ancestry, we wouldn't have to have single registration in the first place. So if you want to be as forthright as possible on the single reg. application and list your dog's grandsire as "Sackett Jr.", I don't think anyone is going to stop you. As long as you play by the same rules as everybody else, I personally don't have a problem with outside blood being brought into a breed.

I do have a question, though. How do we know there aren't a half dozen Redbone males in the breed right now that are capable of being an Ace or a Sackett Jr. for the Redbones?

I might be an idiot, and I've been called worse, but I believe there are several Jr. type reproducers in every breed, living and breathing and maybe even treeing coons right now. Nobody knows every Red male out there and what his reproducing ability is. So, why don't we know? I believe its because 90% of them are not hunted properly, or not promoted properly, or not bred enough to find out what they will produce, and if they are, most of their pups end up on the plywood or the porch, not on the side of the hardwood. Maybe time would be better spent to swallow egos and look for the Jr. type Red males that already have 'PR' on their papers? Only if that search is fruitless, should you look to other breeds for help. I'm not accusing anybody of anything and not directing this at anybody in particular. I'm just suggesting that perhaps if we don't see what we need, it might be because we aren't looking hard enough. Not because it isn't there.

With the variety and numbers there are in even the least numbered breed, there ought to be plenty of quality and diversity. I think crossbreeding is perhaps a shortcut and maybe a little bit of a gimmick used to get an edge. An edge that might allow pups to be placed in better hands, and when that happens, look out because we will be hearing about how great crossbreeding is and the rest will be history.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 828

I still disagree - when I have pups born that are silver or black and tan someone HAS contaminated the gene pool. I end up with pups that can't be registered - and at least **I** find them homes and give them away without papers. Who knows how many of these innocent off color pups are killed at birth because of what somebody did generations ago - and the pups have to pay the price.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 828

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Maitland This question was posed to true redbone hunters. People who sincerely want to see the breed continue to improve. [/B]

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: McClure,Pa.
Posts: 48

Well Joe I see your back. I can remember while at a top redbone breeders residence( I think it was in the mid 70's ) being told of many black and tan pups being thrown by his stud dog. The man told the dogs mother was a high tan, I'm not sure what ya' all consider a high tan but I consider it a cross breed. As a youngster I spent many a night with a old man and his collie redbone cross, it was one of the best known hounds in the area, good mouth and a tree dog second to none. He always had people waiting for pups, they were usually out of the best male in the locallity, the breed didn't matter, fact is she threw some mighty good lookin red dogs off an old grade walker that was a pretty good cooner himself. I have had a few black pups and consider it a throw back, not a fault.
Well one more thing, If these red people would breed to the dogs that were reproducing ( instead of acting like a bunch of children ) the breed would continue to improve without bringing the walkers in. nough said !

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

Everytime I think I am getting a handle on breeding coonhounds. I find out that if I just wait a while I will learn something new that just blew my last theory out of the water. No matter what you read see or hear no one has said it any better or any truer the Larry Atheron who frequents this and other message boards. He had an article in C. Bloodlines a year or so ago and it was very interesting and informative. The bottom line is Selection. I don't care if your cross breeding, line breeding or breeding while your standing on your head. Selection is the #1 factor for producing the type of hounds we all can be proud of.
John D. who just posted about there being a Sackett, Jr. in every breed is probably 100% correct but for some reason only Dr. Phil can explain why he is not seeked out and used and his value as a reproducer advertized. Taking a coonhound from a puppy to a degreed hound is no easy chore and takes time and money---but perhaps the main thing is that the person doing it has to be DRIVEN or INSPIRED by something. It seems like some walker guys are more inspired, which some confuse with having a better hound. Now back to the question, will a shot of walker help the redbone breed or the bluetick breed or vice versa. It sure seems like it does but could the people doing this just be driven a little more and a little more determined their hounds are going to get into the winners circle. Does thinking out of the box keep some men motivated and wanting to prove to others what they have while the man down the road that has had the same bloodlines for 30 years has better hounds but no one will ever know cause the man has no intentions or the need to prove it. There is a lot of hype that goes with these hounds and it is easy to get caught up in it.
I will leave you with this---I have never been a big fan of line breeding (my mistake)---Because I think some outstanding hounds can be produced from out crosses-----BUT I WILL TRY AND LEAVE YOU WITH A MENTAL PICTURE OF WHAT EACH TYPE OF BREEDING CAN ACCOMPLISH FOR YOU.
Picture two targets with bullet holes scattered over them.
The target that represents the out crossed hounds will have its bullet holes scattered over a wider area of the target with several bullseyes.
The target that represents line bred hounds will have a tighter pattern around the bullseye but maybe no direct hit and the better job you do in the SELECTION process the closer you will come to that perfect bullseye.

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Boss Lights
San Mateo, Fl

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I am a novice, no doubt, but I do have opinions!!!

First I think it was Bruce that was talking about looking at nite hunt win stats vs. solid color or ticked/multi color. Its dead on.

The breeds that have the most success in the hunts are those that are not held to a strict standard of color. Period. Do the math. Unfortunately, for whatever night hunt wins are worth to folks, that is the only public means we have to measure success.

Another thing crossed my mind. I remember an interview in CB a few years ago with Wayne Campbell. In there he stated that Timber Chopper was bred to a lot of females that were NOT redbones. I always assumed that is where the good qualities in Walkers came from!!!LOL!

I remember seeing a redbone at Henry a few years ago that had Hickory Nut Harry in his three generation pedigree. I thought he was a redbone, but maybe they had him registered English? I don't know.

But getting to your original question, "should we allow crossbreeds to be registered red if they meet the breed standard" I say maybe later, but not just yet.

I believe the bigger issue at hand for the redbone people is not really getting any new genetic lines in the breed going, rather, making better use of the ones that are there already. I believe that the breed is surely capable of better than what we are doing now and that until we start working with each other and crossing the, "strains", we are spinning wheels and winning bench shows.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: new york
Posts: 11

Im not an expert on this subject or even a compitition man. I pleasure hunt as do many redbone(and other breads as well) owners and I believe the outcrosses that need to be looked for are not in the other breds but look where there are generations of hunting dogs that havent seen compition so that they are never bred 50 times to spread there genetics to the compitition dogs that everyone sees .

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Greenleaf, WI
Posts: 839

And just when do you expect to see such a 360 degree turn where we all start working together? And why not do it now? Why wait until we are in worse condition that we already are?

Oh I see- let's all wait until the other breeds win their 50th World Hunt in a row. But then again when the 51st is a Reddog, that dog's name will show up top and bottom in every pedigree for the following 30 years.

I say we pop another sandwich in the lunchbox now.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

Let's define "True Redbone Breeders"
If you want a Walker why not just get one instead of trying to corrupt the "True Redbone" breed.In the beginning a group of men got together and started a list of certain characteristics to fit a specific breed of hound that would consistently breed true to those characteritics while maintaining as close to pure blood as possible within that breed.This is not only Redbones but each of the six breeds.Then along came competition hunts and the trend began to change from breeding for the listed characteristics to breeding to win and to heck with anything else.
I know there has been some added blood in all the breeds but I don't think it has been done as much as you suggest,my opinion,and it was done without thought or care of the listed characteristics of each breed which the "True Breeders" of those breeds strived so hard to maintain.
Now are those characteristics 'Old Timers" and outdated??? Maybe so,who knows,but I believe in them still.And I also believe that if a person feels they are outdated they could,if they searched enough,find another breed that would come closer to fitting their personal beliefs of what characteristics come the closest to fitting their needs rather than mixing the blood of another breed.
Let's say for the sake of argument that you crossed a Redbone/Walker and got an all Red hound and single registered it as a Redbone and won the World Hunt three years in a row.Would you go down in History as the man that did the most in promoting the Redbone Breed??? Probably would but in fact you were not promoting the "True Redbone" breed at all but rather a "CROSS" bred hound that would not have the listed characteristics of the Redbone breed,all for the sake of winning.
As Bruce would say "If you want to win,get a Walker"
I know this isn't going to come over like I mean it too as it is so hard to try typing words to convey the correct meaning but you asked for my opinion so here it is,it differs from yours and that's the way it should be.I respect yours to the Max and wish you luck in life.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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Pappy just for the sake of getting other people to think a little let me counterpoint some of the things you said. Before I do, please don't anyone think I am saying Pappy is wrong or I am disagreeing with what he wrote. I am just trying to discuss the aspects of what he worte to get opinions on it to see if they can hold water. First let me say I agree 100% with several statements you made and the best being.
1. I agree that outside blood has been entered in all breeds but not as much, expecially in redbones as some would think. I also don't think that too much outside blood would be good for any breed.

Now for a couple counterpoints:
The man that won the world hunt with a walker/redbone cross or even the man that won a lot of hunts with a walker/redbone cross may get some personal recgonition, BUT. If he got people interested in the Redbone breed with his single registered hound and if his single registered reporduced redbones that people could win with wouldn't he actually be doing more for the redbone breed than a lot of other redbone breeders. Isn't this one of the things that is written in the breed charters and constitutions. Promotion. It you have to sidetrack just a little to do it, isn't it better to do it for a breed you admire and want to advance than not to for a breed that is not being all it can be and getting the credit it deserves as a proficient cooner.

Next point: About changing the breeds to meet the comp hunts standards. Yes I am a firm believer that the rules over a long run determine the kind of dogs we hunt. Comp hunts shouldn't be used to change the breeds and make people change from the basic characteristics these dogs had. The should be use as and were designed to measure their ability. That is how it should work. If the basic characteristics of a redbone describes a dog that when put in a comp hunt or just hunted with other coonhounds, cannot be heard over the other dogs, cannot get to the tree before the other dogs, cannot honestly outstrike and out trail the other dogs then yes changes should be made. I think a lot of redbones can hold their own and are superior hounds. I also think improvements can be made to both the ability of the hound and to the promotion of the redbone hound. If bringing in some walker or english or bluetick blood helps that to happen then so be it. I am a firm believer that a little. very little outside blood is just fine, too much and its going down hill.
Thank you Pappy for giving me the chance to discuss this with you.

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Boss Lights
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Last edited by Bruce Conkey on 08-22-2003 at 08:43 PM

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I expect to see a turnaround in the near future when the younger, or more open minded redbone owners realize that what has been being done isn't producing the type of dogs that they want and if they want to breed for a competition hound then they better start breeding comp. coondog to comp. coondog to get where they want to be. And it would be a 180 degree turnaround, not a 360 degree one...if your going to chastise, at least do it right.

If I can find a dog out of no name blood that is a redbone and a cooner, then I dang well know the ingredients are out there in the breed to get the job done. People just have to abandon this ,"Strain Stigma" that everybody seems so in love with. We would have to be in a lot worse shape than we are to think about bringing in outside stuff in any great quantity.

That is just my opinion. As a wise man once told me, "Everybody else can hunt what they want, but I'll never carry a half-a*sed excuse for a hound again." And while you are packing sandwiches for the lunchbox for our 50 year world hunt wait, why don't you make me one. I'll take bologna. That way we can both be full of it!

Later,
RC

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce Conkey
Before I do, please don't anyone think I am saying Pappy is wrong or I am disagreeing with what he wrote.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: LaFollette,Tn.
Posts: 1318

Joe! You know how I feel about this subject. I am looking for winners plain and simple. I am not driving all over the country to these hunts just to be there. If it has white on it or is a lighter color red don't matter to me they all look good when they are stretched up on the tree. It all depends on what you are wanting in your dog. Some people like dark red some people want one to hunt out a little then check in if they don't stike.Which is fine if that is what you want. Just get what you want and go for it.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 78

I ain't gonna be political at all here. If stats prove anything at all then people should already know that the redbone breed is in trouble. To many people worried about what the dog looks like instead of how the dog gets on the wood. I have a hound in my kennel that looks good and performs but I will breed that dog to dogs that perform or I won't breed him at all. I don't care about if the dog fits the narrow view of does it look like a redbone (all pretty on the bench). I'm gonna hunt redbones until I have clay throwed on my face in the grave and I'm gonna have hounds I don't have to make excuses for. If I see a trait that my hounds are lacking I'm gonna get it and try to further the breed. If there is someone out there that has to abilllty to win the big hunt with a (purebred)redbone and doesn't push that dog then they aren't trying to promote the breed either so they should not climb on people for doing things and trying. I want it to be a perfect world but news flash it's not people and if the other breeders are gonna (pollute the gene pool to produce winners) then redbone breeders are gonna have to do better than they have or take the high road and have a winner every 50 years. A wise man once told me if you take your shoe off and throw it in a crowd of people the one you hit is gonna scream the loudest. There's several out there that is close I hope they keep gettin it done and we see a new winner from the redbone breed but we have a lot of catchin up to do. Bologna is fine with me Joe if you throw in a cold one and a bag of chips.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

in relation to your counterpoint.If that hound winning the world is half Redbone and half Walker but is registered as a Redbone would it be a REDBONE they are interested in? No,it would be a hound capable of winning and no matter what we said or did that hound would still be a crossbred and not a Redbone and for generations on down the road the offspring would still not be Redbones but crossbred hounds.I have nothing against Crossbreds but if I have one I sure ain't gonna call it a Redbone just because it is basically Red.You are right about one of the constitutions being promoting the Breed but nothing is written about promoting Crossbreeds.
Oh well I knew the point I was trying to make wouldn't come out as clear as I would have like it to but at least I did state my opinion and if someone wants to cross a Redbone/Walker and win the world more power to them and I convey my congratulations to them right now but I hope folks know it is neither a Redbone or a Walker.
I saw a topic the other day about a B&T with a white foot and a white chest being single registered that sure caused a lot of stink from some of our B&T breeders that frequent this board so there may be something to that real estate thing John D is talking about.

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Pete Miles

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