Registered: May 2006
Location: Gauley Bridge,Wv
Posts: 2938

ive racked my brian many time why on earth does it matter if the male hasnt got a title such as GRNite or NiteCh he is just a 'pr' dog last i checked that doesnt make a coon dog they wont breed to one unless its dual grand or has a title i know people want all grand dogs yeah nice to have but why is it they dont care about the female most people now a days are breeding for the wrong reason and not comeing out on top people are breeding for papers they should be breeding for the way of the hound breed coondog to coondog to inprove the breed dont just breed because of papers for example ive had my male dog deamon (walker) up for std for free he is a nice 5 year old coondog doesnt have but 25 points to a title and i have only have one breeding booked but a nite ch dog that slicks,fights,and isnt much of a coondog is breeding left and right iam just saying if more stud owners go by what both sire and dam are doing before they breed there would be bettering the dogs we see today people need to get there heads on there shoulders right and think before they breed i seen on the sales page where a guy was looking for a female with no ablity what so ever to breed people like that should think first and not do it just for money or a pup wooooweeee that felt good to get off my chest My point here is To breed Coondog to coondog not papers to papers

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Last edited by mudman on 11-07-2007 at 03:12 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

YEPPERS. THAT'S WHAT WE DO IS BREED FOR QUALITY. NOT QUANTITY.

AS LONG AS THE DOGS SUITS US, THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

WE DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HAVING PUPS TILL THEY ARE 4 MONTHS OLD TRYING TO SELL THEM TO WHOEVER WILL PAY THE QUICKEST.

WE HUNT WHAT WE BREED AND WE BREED WHAT WE HUNT, THAT WAY WE KNOW WHAT WE HAVE.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

The truth is titles do mean something. If they didn't your dog would be breeding as many females as most GrNtCh's and this thread would not have been started.

I'm not saying its a perfect system, that its fair, that every titled dog is better than every nontitled dog or anything like that. I'm just saying thats the way it is and in order for your nontitled dog to stand out, there has to be a reason he stands out. What makes him better? For some reason people aren't breeding to him and the title may only be part of the reason. Just saying he's "nice" doesn't make him any different than any other dog out there. Most owners of females will think, why not breed to a "nice" dog that has a "GRNtCh" in front of his name?

I'm not trying to be mean, but sometimes we just have to take the blinders off and look at our own dogs like the rest of the world would and forget that they are "our dog".

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Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

One thing a GrNt has over the best no-title "pr" dog on the planet is that the Grand has been out there in the public eye. His owner didn't hesitate to put his dog in a cast with whatever he drew out with. He didn't worry that the dog might look like crap and people would badmoujth the dog. He had the balls to put his dog out there in the public eye where he could be judged by those who drew him, good, bad or whatever. That willingness to show what you got in uncontrolled circumstances carries weight with many serious coonhound breeders.

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Registered: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 93

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
One thing a GrNt has over the best no-title "pr" dog on the planet is that the Grand has been out there in the public eye. His owner didn't hesitate to put his dog in a cast with whatever he drew out with. He didn't worry that the dog might look like crap and people would badmoujth the dog. He had the balls to put his dog out there in the public eye where he could be judged by those who drew him, good, bad or whatever. That willingness to show what you got in uncontrolled circumstances carries weight with many serious coonhound breeders.

---

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Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

The hunt test is no different from "I'll show my dog alone in the woods any night". I have seen plenty that could look good alone, with nothing else out there to compare them to. I have seen and owned good dogs that wouldn't stay treed with a strange dog. I have seen and owned good dogs that were too rough to hunt with a dog they didn't know. I have seen (but never owned) good dogs that would leave a tree and pull to anything that threw a locate in the same square mile. I would not breed or breed to any of them.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

Mudman... I know exactly what you're saying, and I completely agree. But, I think titles have such an influence on the success of a stud dog because a lot of times it's a person's only way to judge a dog. I'd be willing to bet that your dog is a coon dog, but with the lies and BS some people dish out, if a dog has a title, you at least have something else to go on other than just claims made by the owner. It's just evidence to support what they say about a dog.

Some people just don't have time to travel around and hunt with a bunch of different stud dogs to find out what they want to breed their females to. There are just too many dogs out there. By looking at only stud dogs with titles, you're weeding out a lot of the duds. There are still titled dogs not worth breeding to, and untitled dogs that are great reproducers and coon dogs, but I think that's just a starting point for a lot of people. Plus, it's easier to find out the scoop on a dog by tracking down people who have hunting with the dog in the hunts.

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Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

Last edited by SCBluetickGirl on 11-07-2007 at 06:46 PM

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 667

In most cases, the guy who says titles mean nothing and don't tree coon will be the first to put his pr female under a titled stud dog.....sad but true..then again, most breedings are about keeping 1 or 2 pups and selling the rest to whomever will buy to recoup the expense ...in some cases all breedings are for the sole purpose of selling pups w/o a thought of who is buying, and not caring whether the pups will be given the chance to make coondogs.

I feel as far as bettering the breed.....breeders should try and make the right decisions as to what/who their coondogs are being bred to.Stud dog owners should be very selective along with the owners of females as to what is being put on the ground. Puppies should be sold to people who will sure enough put them in the woods and do everything humanly possible to see that the pups are gave the chance to make coondogs. When a said prospect doesn't pan out, after all the right things have been applied, don't offer for sale as a way to get a return on the investment...offer as a pet or by other means to make sure the dud isn't ever allowed to reproduce it's likeness.

At the end of the day, it's really not about bettering a breed....it's about money or we'd see more stud dog owners being selective. and turning 9 in 10 females away.

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I don't think it's about money. If it was about money, no one would be breeding coondogs.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: start, La.
Posts: 125

I will kind of have to agree with Erin and Jim on this. Titles make a statement that you are willing to put your dog out there in uncontrolled circumstances for people to see and judge but yet not every one can go to the hunts related to jobs or just expense but they have a coondog. I have a PR female named Tammy out of Schults Coma that is 8 y/o and been in 3 hunts because of my job and having to take so much call. She has been a natural all her life. I bred her to a PR dog that was a coon dog out of Ronnie Banes Flame Dog. The pups turned out great and it looks like I will be able to hunt the pup I kept this next year in the hunts but I will try to champion out Tammy as she seems to be a reproducer in case I breed her again. That being said if you planned on studding a dog or selling pups out of your female, bite the bullet and champion your dog.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

Yep... I figure if you've got breeding stock and you wanna prove it, it's a lot easier to just go ahead and title the dog rather than trying to convince everyone that the dog's worthy of the title, but just doesn't have it (for whatever reason).

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Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 667

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
I don't think it's about money. If it was about money, no one would be breeding coondogs.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

20 years ago I had a litter of 9 unregistered walkers.

Sold them all before they were weaned for 100$ each with no advertising at all.

I couldent give them away today, wouldent matter how good the parents are, or their titles.

Things have changed, for every person looking to buy a coonhound pup there are 30-50 pups for sale.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

quote:

---

Originally posted by James200
Ask Timothy Ball
Buzz Lynch
Jonathan Duke

If breeding to any and everything weren't about money there would be no performance program, ss pups,breeders stake etc.

I'm aware not everyone breeds for the hope of making a buck....but in most cases it's about money and the thought of bettering a breed is secondary.

---

Yea, there are exactly 5 poeple on earth that can turn a dollar on coonhound pups.....You just named 3.

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 667

quote:

---

Originally posted by SCBluetickGirl
Yep... I figure if you've got breeding stock and you wanna prove it, it's a lot easier to just go ahead and title the dog rather than trying to convince everyone that the dog's worthy of the title, but just doesn't have it (for whatever reason).

---

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 3660

i own the credit river tucker dog that is currently listed as the #1 repoducing walker dog. he does not have the prettiest pedigree. several pr dogs in a 4 gen ped. one of the upsides is that only people who were serious about improving their stock bred to him. people knew pup sales would be tough ,so they bred for themselves. they recognized something they needed in tucker and came and got it. it has payed off well for them. if your dog has something thats needed, the locals will recognize it. show him a little. pleasure or comp. every person who bred to tucker hunted with him or his pups. quality beats quantity every time. being one of these breeders who produces hundres of pups every year in which a high % end up on the proverbial rockpile just cant be that rewarding. if i remember right lee logans old clover dog only made 185 pups and look at what a mark he made. how many pups did old sackett produce? its not all in the numbers!

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 170

finally / i agree

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Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 68

your rite in my eyes,,breed coon dog to coon dog ,hell with the papers if you like treeing coon,4 most breeders it is just a money thing thats all,

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

When I first bought Loose, several guys...some of them big name breeders.. said finish that dog and I got a female I want to breed to him. The cross he is from has been pretty successful, then there was the fact he could throw the elusive "All Grand" pedigree.


I bought him to have something to hunt when the females were in heat. I realy didnt care if I even campained him, and in fact didnt much for the first 6 months or so.

Then a burr got under my saddle and to prove a point I finished the dog in 3 strait casts. Winning the RQE in his old stomping grounds in the process. I had just never gotten that seriouse about it before that, because I knew I was going to be hunting pups from him anyway.

Now that he is finished, by god I will decide who he covers. I dont care if he has 101 pups or 101,000. I have a job to make a living, this is a hobby.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

I wouldn't hesitate to breed a good female of mine with a dog that was untitled, so long as he had all the necessary components and was a good, balanced hound. I wouldn't think twice about it.

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Vernon, Alabama
Posts: 2382

quote:

---

Originally posted by James200
Ask Timothy Ball
Buzz Lynch
Jonathan Duke

If breeding to any and everything weren't about money there would be no performance program, ss pups,breeders stake etc.

I'm aware not everyone breeds for the hope of making a buck....but in most cases it's about money and the thought of bettering a breed is secondary.

---

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2760

when I say "you" I am referring to anyone (I don't mean you "mudman")

no matter how GREAT your dog is, you may have the only perfect dog alive, but if it aint titled people won't breed............

if you want to stud your dog out and make money with him, you are going to have to title it....

people are and do breed to paper, you will get plenty of local hunters that have hunted w/ or have heard of your dog that will breed.......

people have to assume that if he is title then he is a coondog.... in many cases that is absolutely not the case.....

if I were to breed a female I wouldn't care one way or the other if the stud was GrNTCH or 'PR' as long as it was a coondog & the type I like............. either way I would hunt with both (more than once) w/ company & w/out, before I decided which to breed to.....

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 129

yea but your also you need to look at yoru top breeders look at russ bellar and timothy ball and john treadwell just to name a few they are all top breeders and have been breeding and producing coondogs for years. alot of people{non-breeders} breed to what everyone wants in hopes to have 10 or so pups they can sell for 300 dollars. just because people want pups off the that stud dog. when your true breeders breed top quality females to there top quality males to get top quality pups. just take a look at dogs that win a lot or people that have been this game for years and you will see what i'm talkig about

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 667

I'm not saying everyone is in it for the money.

I am saying money in most cases is the main objective with the betterment of the breed being secondary. These guys paying large sums of money for a hound then campaining him as a stud is one way of getting dividends on the investment. When you put the performance program etc. into the mix it also adds to the return.

My good friend Timothy Ball paid $10,000.00 for the freak show. I have no idea how many females Freak has covered but I would have to assume he has paid for himself several times over per stud fees & such.

I also have no clue or care how much $$$$ Buzz or Jonathan have invested in their hounds but am thankful these 3 men offer nice hounds @ stud to the public.

If a man can't stay out of the red @ $ 400.00, $300.00 x's a minimum of 50 females a year for the life span of their studs they wouldn't continue to do it.

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Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 68

is all about the money if the breeders was not making money,they would be moore carfull wat there studs breed,but if you got cash you can breed

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