Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 132

I have wondered this for a long time, and have asked this question in the past. I'll admit I have never gotten an aswer that satisfied me, but maybe none exists.

Why does UKC base wins toward championship degrees on scores from different casts who competed with different competition in differrent conditions?

My stance is that I don't think it is a good measure for which dog did a better job. I'm a big sports fan, and I think the casts of a competition hunt are a lot like separate games of a given sport. If you win your game in sports you win even if another team scores more points in a different game. Say your favorite baseball team wins their game 3-0, and the score of another game is 15-11. Under UKC's current policy that 3-0 victory would be worth less than the win of the team that won 15-11, and if you had a NITECH it would be worthless period if there weren't atleast 21 NITECH dogs there. The other night a dog here scored 300+ and 0- to win a cast at a Minislam against a tough cast of hounds and got nothing to show for it. I just don't see how any of this tells you which dog did a better job.

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but to me AKC has this right (where cast wins with plus points are of equal value) while UKC doesn't want to change it, and don't get me wrong I prefer hunting UKC to any registry. This is just one point that I think could be improved upon.

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Ryan Layton

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Registered: May 2007
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Posts: 184

Well it don't matter anymore, UKC is stuck with their current system. They would close the doors before they would ever copy AKC.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Bayou Pigeon
Posts: 390

I like thier current system. If i wanted to hunt for cast wins I'd hunt in the other registries (which I do). Some nights the cast winners dont deserve a dang thing.

Its already easy enough to make a dog Grand Nite or Nite champion.

The only thing UKC should copy is a tree countdown.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 132

I've heard this too easy to make a dog GRNITE business before. I never said make anything easier. I said how does scoring more points in a different place agaist different competition have anything to do with which dog did a better job. I don't care if you make it so the dog has to win 10 NITECH casts instead of 5. Lets try to make this degree a little more uniform, and take a little of the luck out of it.

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Ryan Layton

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Registered: Apr 2007
Location: Jonesborough Tennessee
Posts: 1034

I agree with you RJL I can't understand how dog's that can score 1500 points in the early casts of lets say the WORLD HUNT only seem to be able to score 400 on the last cast? Are they on buckets early on ? I don't know. If you get a lucky draw and I don't you win ,but how do we KNOW your dog is better??

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Ralph Williams

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Bunn, NC (Near Raleigh)
Posts: 1584

If a hunter and their dog win their cast with plus points they have done just as much as any other plus point cast winner of that same night. To compare scores is the standard but it is not a fair standard as some were hunting on buckets, others in wild coons, and even others in spots that were extremely low in coon population due to heavy hunting.

As for the arguement that taking away the requirement for a first place win makes it easier thats actually incorrect most of the time. The last 3 friends of mine that finished a dog to Nt Ch did so with 3 wins (2) or 4 wins (1)....therefore if the requirement were 5 cast wins with plus points it would actually have been harder to finish out, they would have to enter more hunts which translates to more cash earned by local clubs and UKC.....

Cast wins without plus points should not be considered cast wins, like in Tic Tac Toe when cat wins, on these casts the coons won.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Bronaugh, MO
Posts: 1604

Well they have cast wins because the cast winner looked the best wherever they were taken, so why shouldn't they get a pat on the back. Heres an example: One cast goes to bucket feeders and comes back with 850+ while the other cast gets taken to a place without a feeder and the guy scores 225+ a first and first on a coon. So why shouldn't he win the cast? The way I look at it is if the 2nd dog had more points then the 1st dog in the 2nd cast, why couldn't that dog have beaten the first dog to get the win?

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Bayou Pigeon
Posts: 390

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigeon
I like thier current system. If i wanted to hunt for cast wins I'd hunt in the other registries

---

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“If winning isn’t everything, why do they keep score?”

Do you know how much money you could win with that dog?.................Now ask if I care.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Texan by Birth---Virginian by Choice
Posts: 1375

i think they need to redo how many wins it takes to grand nite champion...say you have a dog who consistantly wins his nite champion cast but with the amount of dogs being he entered only one place is given... he doesnt draw out tothe honey hole some come up with.... say this hound has 10 or more cast wins and still only has 2 er 3 wins............to me it seems he is consistant and gets the job done...,,,,,,should he not be rewarded. jmo...

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 132

Fair enough pigeon.

I prefer UKC to other registries, and will continue to hunt their club (although I do occasionally hunt others). The fact is that I don't think their system is perfect, and I personally think this is an area that they could easily improve in. I also think it would be considered an improvement by most hunters, and in turn would help hunt attendance. Of course I could be wrong about that, and that is why I wanted to discuss it.

I don't really think we are going to change the world here, but I like to hear what other hunters think about certain things. We all have to deal with a lot of the same things, and we might as well share our experience (or the opinions we make based on experience).

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Ryan Layton

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Bayou Pigeon
Posts: 390

Years ago when the president/owner of UKC sat down and wrote the rules to these nite hunts he probably didnt expect feeders to play a big part as they do today. Maybe thats why the highest score meant something?


When I attend the local clubs I can pretty much guess which dogs have the better chance to win just by the guide(s) they draw. Every club has thier one or two guides that everyone wants to draw because they know they'll get put in coon. Feeders or no Feeders.

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“If winning isn’t everything, why do they keep score?”

Do you know how much money you could win with that dog?.................Now ask if I care.

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Louisa, Ky
Posts: 349

I think UKC should fix it where that a nitech cast win is worth so many points and that you should have to have at least one overall first place win and a 100 points in cast wins to make a dog a grand nite ch. This would eliminate a lot of pencil work and also help the casts that don't have buckets to hunt on while also being fair to the casts that do have buckets. Just a thought..............

Maybe a cast win worth say 10 points or so.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Texan by Birth---Virginian by Choice
Posts: 1375

so that wood make ya still have to win 10 cast to make grand nite....
i for one thinks it should be like 5 cast wins,,,

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Lyndon Crosby
Cross-B Cooonhounds

Walkers:
AKC CH UKC GRCH 'PR' Stackem Up High
* 2011 AKC South Carolina State Reserve Bench CHampion
*2012 Ukc Louisiana State Youth Bench Show Champion
*Qualified for Lee Crawford Invitational
*2012 AKC Va State Bench Show Champion
*Qualified for 2012 UKC WORLD SHOW

UKC GRCH'PR' Harts Mill Whiskey Rose

New Redbone:

CH 'PR' Harts Mill Flame-N-Flare

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