Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Advance, MO
Posts: 77

My thoughts on it are if you can win a NITECH cast with plus points that oughta be worth something. I don't know how you can do anything about what happens on another cast, or how you can compete with dogs in a totally different situation. I'm not saying every NITECH cast win should be worth what a win that counts as one of the 5 now. Maybe it should be worth half of a win or something like that, and what would be a win now should still be worth the same. This would make things a little more consistent between areas with lots of hunters, and areas witho

Last edited by Ryan Layton on 08-21-2003 at 12:53 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 437

Sure would be a heart breaker to come in with 775+ and discover that you are tied for 1st then lose it on a coin toss. You did your best the dog did it's best and the combination of you and your dog's score prooves that you did as well that night as any other dog handler combo in the woods. You would really be strecting things to send dogs back out in the woods in states such as Virginia or West Virginia where there is no hunting allowed on Sundays .... so the coin toss would be the only real option, and to loose that would really kinda suck.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1076

>if you can win a NITECH cast with plus points that oughta be worth something<
This is one of the reasons I don't bother hunting a dog too much after it makes NT CH

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bruce ordway

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Portland, IN
Posts: 964

Leave it the way it is. This is why they call it Grand, it takes a lot to do it. I don't own a GRNite nor have I ever, but I will own one, hopefully the one I am currently hunting. I think it should be hard to make a dog Grand. Otherwise everyone and their brother would have a Grand, and it would mean nothing!!!

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Matt Lingo

Rock Creek Kennels

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 414

i think a judge or moh should see the dog run an tree by himself before hes titled . there is to many me to nite ch dogs.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1411

let the nt ch cast winners hunt it out.

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Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Anyone who has followed this board very long has heard plenty said about titled dogs that can't tree coons, cheap titles, and all that stuff. I would be dead set against anything that made it even slightly easier to finish a dog. I know a well known breeder in this area who had 4 wins on his female and won 7 straight casts without getting that final win. He had about the nicest comp female I'd seen in a long time. He won the 8th hunt and finished her to grand. The standards have been the same for a longtime now, any lessening of the standards would be a slap to every dog that has made it. If a dog can't meet the standard then the dog isn't good enough to wear the title. It's as simple as that. Most dogs can't get those titles won, if most dogs could the titles would truely be meaningless.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Advance, MO
Posts: 77

You know I've talked about this a lot with people before, and I don't agree with the agrument about the tititle being too easy to come by and dogs that can't even tree a coon having them and all that. What I am saying is how are you gonna beat dogs on another cast. You can't do it, because you aren't competing with those dogs, they are in a completely different situation and against different dogs. I feel like the current system depends too much on guides, and is a better measure for luck and hauling dogs to a bunch of hunts rather than a meausre for coon dogs.

I hunt UKC over PKC, but this is one area that I feel PKC has UKC beat. They don't place as much emphasis on competition between casts, because PKC recognizes that it isn't a fair comparison. In my opinion it is a meaningless comparison.

In truth I really think they should make it where you have to have 10 or 15 NITECH cast wins with plus points no matter what NITECH place you earn. That wouldn't be making it easier. In some cases it would make it harder. It demands a higher level of consistency, but puts less emphasis on guide and luck.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

Truly, I think that any time that we allow ourselves to believe that anything is "good enough the way that it is" we are settling for what we know to work.

Grand should be very tough to attain. And I believe that before the title is bestowed on a dog, the dog should have to strike, run, tree and stay treed all by itself! Or better yet, before it is titled as a night champion. Have a "certification" process where the dog is taken to the woods by a "certification" judge all by itself.....limit the number of dumps a dog gets to do this, and if they can not produce a coon in a tree....they don't get the title.

I for one understand the difference between casts. Just last night, I was guided on a cast that turned loose in a 200 acre corn field. While another cast turned loose in a river bottom. Guess which cast came back with the higher score? Does that make the other cast a "winner" and our cast losers? No, to me all things being equal, the dogs that scored on two coon out of the cornfield worked harder for their score than the river bottom cast...which is the measure of a Grand Champion?

The plus point cast winners should recast, and let the competition begin in earnest! Or give credit to each cast winner and change the number of "wins" necessary to achieve the title.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Last edited by Oak Ridge on 08-21-2003 at 05:35 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

When the NTCH winners come back in, the +points winners should be recast and see who's who.

ALL the dogs in the registered portion of the hunts get something through 10th place.

I personally don't think that it's fair not to award the NTCH's anything for their hard work. Just because their NTCH, dosent mean that they did or didn't work just as hard as the registered dog for it's win, and it'll get some credit for it.

There's nothing that makes a NTCH cast winner madder than coming in knowing you got a good score, and then getting beat out of a win by a half a point. Because that's all it takes to knock you out of it.

I think that it should be revised in some way to make it more fair.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Comer, Georgia
Posts: 4724

you said it, buddy..........I like both those options (I had a hound that I had in 37 nite champion casts...........he won his cast with plus points 30 times, 3 more with circled points..........had 4 wins toward Grand nite when I quit huntin' in the hunts..........and 2 of those were in RQE's...................went 5 hunts in a row where I had 225 on the only coon, and somebody comes in with 250 on 2 coons and beats me...........just bad luck I guess).

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Adairsville, GA
Posts: 269

If this title becomes easier to get then everyone will have a grand nite. If anything I think it should be made a harder process than what it already is. After getting all of your wins the hound should be made to meet some criteria such as treeing coon all by itself or something that way. Look at the seal on your pedigrees that say "honor to whom honor is due", making it easier to be a grand nite will only cheapen that statement. And for all of you who are saying "How can I compete with another cast of hounds that I am not with".... Well how did you get the first place win to become a Nite champion? You beat every dog in every cast that night. A dog on its way to grand should be able to consistently post the numbers to do that five times, if not maybe its not meant to make it to a grand nite title. Here again I say leave it alone.

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David Padgett

When the tailgate drops,... The excuses just get more frequent.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Advance, MO
Posts: 77

I'd like to make one thing clear about this. I said different, and that doesn't always translate to easier. It is possible to have a system in which the degree of difficulty would still be just as high or higher, and still reward dogs for winning a cast with plus points. If you make a dog win 10 or 15 NITECH casts with plus points that could be just as hard or harder than winning 5 firsts (or others that count as NITECH wins now). It just depends on what kind of hunts you go to, what part of the country your in, and who you draw for a guide.

Also when you won that first in my opinion you didn't beat everyone on those other casts any way. Did they have a chance to compete against you head to head. If not then you didn't beat them. Just to illustrate this I'll make a baseball comparison. Say St. Louis beats the Cubs 4-1, and Atlanta beats San Diego 10-9 on the same day. It doesn't mean that the Braves are a better team, or that they did a better job than St. Louis. They just scored more points against their opponant. I also don't think that anyone would say that this means that the Braves beat the Cardinals that day.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Churchville, VA
Posts: 798

David, I agree.

I took my female from nothing to Gr. Nt. I entered her in a lot of hunts, won a few, and lost a few. As a Nt. Ch. I had numerous cast wins with plus points, but another cast came in with a higher score. It took me 8 months to go from nothing to Gr. Nt. Oh well, that is part of the game. I do not have a hound that could win the world hunt, but she is consistant, and consistancy is what made her a Gr. Nt.; consistancy on her part and my part. Since finishing her out to Gr. Nt., I often wish she was not finished, or it would take more than 5 wins, as I enjoyed hunting her in competition, win or loose. For me, this is what it is all about, fun, having a good time, and I am sure MANY of you that have a Gr. Nt. wish you could still hunt your hound in competition.

In closing, I would just like to voice my opinioin... LEAVE IT ALONE !! or make it harder. The title of Gr. Nt. is not ment to be, or should be easy, and I have a lot of respect for anyone who is able to finish a hound to Gr. Nt., as I know it is not an easy task. One more thing, If a hound is able to attain this title, I feel that is proof he or she is a coon hound, and can tree their own coon. I have hunted in a lot of competition hunts, and feel, in my opinion, that it is near impossible for a hound to attain 5 Nt. Ch. cast wins with plus points, and not be able to tree their own coon. These are just my thoughts and opinions on this subject, and not ment to upset anyone.

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Last edited by Shawn E. Ott on 08-22-2003 at 03:51 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Adairsville, GA
Posts: 269

"What I am saying is how are you gonna beat dogs on another cast. You can't do it, because you aren't competing with those dogs, they are in a completely different situation and against different dogs."


I might can see that statement being true for your baseball scenario, But what about when they are playing the same team? If the Braves beat the Mets and sweep the series, and then the Mets just pound the Dodgers for three games wouldn't it be fair to say that the Braves are probably gonna beat the Dodgers? Yes I think so. That is the consistency I mentioned. But with all that aside look at your statement. You said how can I beat the other casts. The measure of winning in the baseball world is quite different from that of the competition coonhunt. There are multiple game series, wildcard spots and playoffs. In a competition hunt there is one night for two hours to tree all the coons you can to come out on top. There is no division title to win that will forgive all of those losses all season long. You are correct in saying that no you didn't directly compete against another cast winner to defeat him, but you did out score him, and in a nite hunt the highest number of points wether there homeruns or basehits is gonna be the measure of your winning.

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David Padgett

When the tailgate drops,... The excuses just get more frequent.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Bear Creek, NC
Posts: 221

I agree with Ryan on this one. Especially when it comes to the big hunts where there are 50 to 100 Nite Champions entered.

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Dixie Black & Tans
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NiteCh 'PR' Dixie's Ragin Black Jack (Viper x Magic)

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

I think they need to stop letting a guy hunt if he's the only Nt Ch their.I know of several dogs that have picked up several of their wins by being the only dog at the hunt.I also know this won't go over well with the majority of the people that read this.But if a Nt Ch doesn't have comp then he shouldn't get credit for a win !!!

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Advance, MO
Posts: 77

I don't know Hobo. Isn't that the situation where the dog has to go out there and prove that it can tree a coon all by it's self like everyone is saying so many titiled dogs can't do. Although that is the situation that makes me want to force a dog to have more cast wins as a NITECH.

Big'n Blue, the point for the baseball scenario was that the teams were going against different competition just like you are going against different competition in a night hunt. You aren't hunting against the same cast of hounds. Some casts might not even have the same amount of hounds. It's all in the luck of the draw--I think GRNITE is to important a title to leave so importance on luck.

We don't agree on this, but that is o.k. It is good to have people from both sides voice their opinion. It's the best way to make an informed decision. Although I doubt if UKC is interested in changing anything anyway. Just a fun topic to talk about.

As far as whether or not the Braves sweeping the Mets, and the Mets sweeping the Dodgers meaning that the Braves are gonna beat the Dodgers, I still say it most certainly doesn't. But don't get me started on baseball, I like talking about baseball almost as much as I like talking about coonhounds, and I have just as much to say lol.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

I know what your saying Ryan but what about the one nt ch that goes out alone and if the handler isn't the judge then they let his buddy judge,who knows what happens on these kind of cast I just think they shouldn't be allowed to hunt like that any longer. But hey I hunt Walkers so what do I know?????? ROFL ROFL ROFL

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Adairsville, GA
Posts: 269

Ryan, yes we do disagree on this one and that is probably a good thing. If everyone was the same, then things would become awfully boring. But you know as well as I do wether things change or stay the same we are both going to keep showing up and donating, its just that one of us is gonna bitch more depending on the scenario.

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David Padgett

When the tailgate drops,... The excuses just get more frequent.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Advance, MO
Posts: 77

You hit that one on the head David, but I prefer to call it discussing---makes me feel more intelligent lol.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1076

>If this title becomes easier to get then everyone will have a grand nite.<
?? who said anything about making it easier?
Heck, why not make it even harder?

How about a GRNT degree taking 25 or 30 cast wins instead of the 5 wins it takes now?

For that matter I don't like the requirement of getting a 1st to make NTCH either. Here too, we could boost it up to 10 or 15 cast wins.

Why can't we just drop the lucky 1st's?
What do they really add to the game anyway?
It usually just means you lucked into some good spots.

But, to be honest, I haven't gone to a hunt in a couple of years.
So what the heck am I complaining about?
I guess I just remember how much disliked 1st's when I was going regularly.
This just gives me a chance to spout off about it.
Even if the degree requirements are changed it's not likely to draw me back.

But, you guys that are hitting the hunts hard right now, ya' might want to consider these ideas.

BTW, anybody know this? Can the degree requirements be changed by breed organizations, the rules committee? Or are they set solely by UKC?

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bruce ordway

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 52

Ryan,
I think it really played out like this.............it's the bottom of the ninth,and tied 4 to 4. Sammy crushes a hanging breaking ball from Morris out of Wrigley that lands on Waveland Avenue sending the Cardinals to their defeat, and sending the Cubs into the World Series where they beat the Yankees in seven.And "NO" the bat was not corked !!! LOL.............

Rick GO CUBS !!!!!!!!!!

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Advance, MO
Posts: 77

I don't even know how to respond to that one Rick. The Cubs winning a World Series. Is anyone still living that has actually seen that happen?

I do remember a ninth inning lead change on a walk off homerun between the Cards and Cubs in the last couple of years, but it was Edgar Renteria hitting one on ESPN Sunday night baseball that started an 11 game winning streak for the Cards which was the begining of a Cardinal push to the Division titile. In a division that the Cubs were leading at the time of the shot.

The Cubs winning a World Series. That is less likely than a dog that can't tree a coon making GRNITE in a month of hunts.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Cheyenne,Oklahoma
Posts: 183

my feelings on this are there are too many hunts that just have one cast of night ch. dogs going out. If I ever finish one to grand I hope the rules stay just like they are, I want that feeling of doing it honestly and proper

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