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ClayBottom11
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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 142

While weíre talking about scores..

Personally, Iíve always liked the elimination format better than high scores.. for many reasons. But after the latest controversy, I decided to take 5 minutes and look into recent years at our beloved Autumn Oaks..


2023 Grand 16 CW scores
ē 300+, 25+, 350+, 225+
Final cast winner 175+

2022 Grand 16 CW scores
ē375+, 200+, 150+, 325+
Final Cast winner 225+

2021 Grand 16 CW scores
ē dead, 200+, dead, 225+
Final cast winner 75+

This is far back as I could find scores posted along with results. The point - every Friday night itís a shootout with, most often, scores coming in over 1,000+ and 700 to 800+ like nobodyís business..

Yet, come Saturday night it dries up and 1 or 2 coons is all that hits the card. Do the stars just align that Friday night is way better hunting every year? Just coincidence?

The Grand 16 is the cream of the crop.. but scores seem to plummet after the race to get in.

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Old Post 02-14-2024 09:25 PM
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Dogwhisper
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My opinion.....and JMO.
hunting judges v non-Hunting judges.
Not saying all hunting judges .....but.......to me that's the common denominator that reflects the discrepancys......again JMO.

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Redneck Mafia
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Better dogs all drew out together and scoring split trees. The backpackers are gone and those that withdraw from the hunt are gone. Handlers are also setting back on trees because all they have to do is win to move on.

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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
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Posts: 5626

Scores

It's time or should I say past the time to start holding a elimination style hunt format on these Major Hunts. It's definitely NOT fair to all who hunt in these HIGH SCORE based hunts. Consider the expense it costs travel, motel, food, and fees,etc. and hunt in poor hunting grounds win your cast with plus points and lose simply due to a cast hunting in a coons zoo and scoring a bunch of points. What's fair about this type of hunt? When are the folks hunting in these HIGH SCORE based hunts going to wise up and stop going. I do not care how good your dog is, you can only win your cast. You have no control where you get to hunt unless you are a local with honey holes. Nuff said. Dave

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Dave Richards
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Posts: 5626

Scores

Sorry, double post

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Jason Miller
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Big Scores at The Classics!!

Unless you have been under a rock for the last thirty years, then you should know that this has almost always been the case.. My first Winter Classic was in the winter of 1995, and guess what that was my last. I have not been to one since.. All of the hunts that are not elimination style events, will always be luck of the draw. I donít care if they score 1200 plus or 2500 plus.. Just not my cup of tea.. Knowing that I donít go to these style of events, and I sure donít criticize the winners by winning under the format presented..

I have hunted with both handler and dog enough to know, that the score is legitimate. It is an unbelievable score, I agree.. However, it was pure circumstantial luck with a hound that was capable of treeing them quick fast and in a hurry..

I have sat idly by and didnít say much about the situation, but some of yíall need to realize at this point you are calling six grown men liars about what they signed their name to and witnessed..

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Old Post 02-15-2024 10:51 PM
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ClayBottom11
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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 142

Re: Big Scores at The Classics!!

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Miller
Unless you have been under a rock for the last thirty years, then you should know that this has almost always been the case.. My first Winter Classic was in the winter of 1995, and guess what that was my last. I have not been to one since.. All of the hunts that are not elimination style events, will always be luck of the draw. I donít care if they score 1200 plus or 2500 plus.. Just not my cup of tea.. Knowing that I donít go to these style of events, and I sure donít criticize the winners by winning under the format presented..

I have hunted with both handler and dog enough to know, that the score is legitimate. It is an unbelievable score, I agree.. However, it was pure circumstantial luck with a hound that was capable of treeing them quick fast and in a hurry..

I have sat idly by and didnít say much about the situation, but some of yíall need to realize at this point you are calling six grown men liars about what they signed their name to and witnessed..



Maybe you commented on the wrong post. I didnít call anyone a liar.. although, for the record, Iíve been around long enough to know a man signing his name doesnít always equal the gospel.

The whole point of this post and what some others have commented is THAT itís gone on for this long and some think the elimination format would be better and would equal a more level playing field. Beat the dogs you draw. I donít really have an opinion on Saturday night in Batesville.. I wasnít there and I donít know those involved. But itís a valid conversation either way.

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Old Post 02-15-2024 11:03 PM
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Jason Miller
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Quitman, Ms.
Posts: 648

There are plenty elimination hunts out there to go to. The classics are just what they are, and still draw good.. I thought most people knew how they were won or lost.. We have about ruined the hunts by changing them around so much, so I say leave the Big Classics alone and if you just want to go to a hunt to socialize and pray you win the lottery at draw out time.. Go to the big classic hunts..

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Old Post 02-16-2024 12:08 AM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5626

Scores

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Miller
There are plenty elimination hunts out there to go to. The classics are just what they are, and still draw good.. I thought most people knew how they were won or lost.. We have about ruined the hunts by changing them around so much, so I say leave the Big Classics alone and if you just want to go to a hunt to socialize and pray you win the lottery at draw out time.. Go to the big classic hunts..


Jason, I respect your opinion, but definitely disagree with your position at leaving these hunts as they are. From your own admission you have not been entered in one of these since 1995 and I suspect it's due to the high score concept As it stands now. If things do not change I believe the numbers will start to drop as more folks are fed up with the High Score format. Just as you stated it's just like winning the lottery to get drawn on a cast getting to hunt in a honey hole, while most casts are taken to hunting ground that gets hunted on a regular basis. How is this fair to all of the hunters that spend their time and money to just hoping to win the lottery. A true winner should be just that, not a dog that was hunted in a training pen or a similar honey hole. UKC should be proud of these major hunts and the winner should be proud to win. NO WAY that is possible under the high score format where winning the lottery as you say and getting that honey hole draw. I certainly did not call anyone a liar just was leery of the score until I was told they hunted in a training pen. How was that fair to the other casts, he may of won with the High Score, but gets no respect. Nuff said. Dave

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Jason Miller
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Posts: 648

Yes, to all of what you said, but I have plenty of hunts to showcase my hounds in elimination format hunts. The big Classic hunts still have big draws because they are the classics.. There is still an allure and Iím sure it will remain that way until coon hunts end.. Though these style of hunts are not for me, they obviously make many people happy. Why would I want to change something that other people enjoy?

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Old Post 02-16-2024 01:09 AM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5626

Scores

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Miller
Yes, to all of what you said, but I have plenty of hunts to showcase my hounds in elimination format hunts. The big Classic hunts still have big draws because they are the classics.. There is still an allure and Iím sure it will remain that way until coon hunts end.. Though these style of hunts are not for me, they obviously make many people happy. Why would I want to change something that other people enjoy?


Jason, you are a man that's proud of what he hunts and knows the elimination based hunts are the only hunts with a true winner. I just think many hunters are seeing the light on these "Classics" and understand there is no winner under the High Score format. The high score format is a joke, plain and simple and until it's changed we are going to still have those who use every means to achieve a high score. Exactly why a man of your honor does not hunt in these hunts. It should never be praying for that draw or winning the lottery mentality that exist under the current format. How successful do you think PKC would be if their big hunts was under the High Score format? Why would anyone spend their money and time to hunt based on a High Score format. Certainly not YOU and definitely not me. Before anyone says just hunt PKC there are many who just do not have the means to do so. Dave

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Old Post 02-16-2024 01:38 AM
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Joe Moore
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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1410

1.) Elimination style hunts would never work at the bigger UKC hunts due to the sheer number of dogs and the logistics of putting that many dogs in the woods round after round. There simply wouldnít be enough time or good ground to hunt close enough to pull double rounds a night at first. Although I do think there should be a top 4 and run the final cast off in an hour hunt like they do at Grand American.

2.) The scores at Oaks on Friday are a race to get in to the Grand 16. This is a 50/50 team effort with the handler and the dog. Friday night handlers are doing their best to get to trees quick, score quicker with the help of thermals, and move spots when they can to help get that big score. Itís also common courtesy if a dog gets down to withdraw and not stand in a handlers way. This is a big one, often by the end of a cast itís one or two dogs left making points easier to come by. All of those play a factor.

While Saturday night scores come from handlers changing up the strategy to just advance. In addition you likely now have 4 dogs that are usually all going to be split and that kills a lot of time as well. Iím sure some shady things habe went down, but handler strategy and catching the right breaks. Just my 2 cents.

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Hoosier Man1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6837

Re: While weíre talking about scores..

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
Personally, Iíve always liked the elimination format better than high scores.. for many reasons. But after the latest controversy, I decided to take 5 minutes and look into recent years at our beloved Autumn Oaks..


2023 Grand 16 CW scores
ē 300+, 25+, 350+, 225+
Final cast winner 175+

2022 Grand 16 CW scores
ē375+, 200+, 150+, 325+
Final Cast winner 225+

2021 Grand 16 CW scores
ē dead, 200+, dead, 225+
Final cast winner 75+

This is far back as I could find scores posted along with results. The point - every Friday night itís a shootout with, most often, scores coming in over 1,000+ and 700 to 800+ like nobodyís business..

Yet, come Saturday night it dries up and 1 or 2 coons is all that hits the card. Do the stars just align that Friday night is way better hunting every year? Just coincidence?

The Grand 16 is the cream of the crop.. but scores seem to plummet after the race to get in.



I'd like to take some time to discuss this. I've been in the Grand 16- 4 times in the last 8 years. I haven't broke 1000 yet I have broken 700 all 4 times I do believe. I have someone who also hunts English dogs guide me and he takes pride in putting the cast in good hunting. There's a few factors that need to take place to have a good score. The first and most important is the hunting and racoon population. The second is a dog that can tree 4-5 in 2 hours(not hard to do when in a good coon population) and third the right group of dogs. Meaning they aren't separating 1000s of yards apart each turn out.

As far as the winter classic and grand American go. I'd venture to say that almost all scores breaking 1000 are over some type of feed. There's nothing in UKC rules that prevents it and that's why you see it every year. On one hand, I think it's distasteful and low , on the other I applaud the hunters for putting the time and work in to have the opportunity to score high.

What needs to happen is the cast needs to absolutely always have 3 voting members. If the cast gets down to 2 dogs for whatever reason a third must stay or be written up. If it's a health issue then return to the club for a 3rd member. This won't solve everything, but anyone that's been to hunts can see how a 2 dog cast can turn ugly in multiple ways.

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Old Post 02-16-2024 03:59 PM
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ClayBottom11
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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 142

Re: Re: While weíre talking about scores..

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I'd like to take some time to discuss this. I've been in the Grand 16- 4 times in the last 8 years. I haven't broke 1000 yet I have broken 700 all 4 times I do believe. I have someone who also hunts English dogs guide me and he takes pride in putting the cast in good hunting. There's a few factors that need to take place to have a good score. The first and most important is the hunting and racoon population. The second is a dog that can tree 4-5 in 2 hours(not hard to do when in a good coon population) and third the right group of dogs. Meaning they aren't separating 1000s of yards apart each turn out.

As far as the winter classic and grand American go. I'd venture to say that almost all scores breaking 1000 are over some type of feed. There's nothing in UKC rules that prevents it and that's why you see it every year. On one hand, I think it's distasteful and low , on the other I applaud the hunters for putting the time and work in to have the opportunity to score high.

What needs to happen is the cast needs to absolutely always have 3 voting members. If the cast gets down to 2 dogs for whatever reason a third must stay or be written up. If it's a health issue then return to the club for a 3rd member. This won't solve everything, but anyone that's been to hunts can see how a 2 dog cast can turn ugly in multiple ways.



Good points - I think the elimination vs high score argument basically hits at trying to create (as much as possible) a level playing field in the sense that youíre already behind the 8 ball when the other cast is hitting prime land and youíre dry holed. Weíve seen that cast where the winner really had to cover ground and work hard to get one treed in the 2 hours. Personally, I find that more impressive than one jamming bucket after bucket. Not arguing against either way - we all hunt how we like - I just enjoy the conversation and the trend of Friday vs Saturday scores is what it is.

I think youíre right that youíve GOT to have 3 members. Weíve all been there and seen how 2 member casts can play out!

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

First let me say that any words I post here are not pointing a finger at anything dishonest. It is just a fact of life and a very big fact in coonhunting. No matter what registery or no matter what format. Men are going to stack the cards in their and their dogs favor. It is not only done with the scores of cast. It is done which each program that any kennel club designs. I have seen it over the years with the top producing sire and especially female. Those that want that title keep the pups and get them to a select few with one goal in mind. Make winners out of most of them. How can a female that gets bred and pups go all over the place compete with a contriolled situation. You need plus points to win. People find a way of getting them. That's just life and winners understand this. Look at the rules over the years and how they have changed as far as who could guide a cast at a major hunt. You use to be at the mercy of the guide you drew. Then people figured out they had better find a way to guide and be picked to guide 800 miles from home. Just what men do. They play the game to win. The more you understand the rules and big picture and combine it with your drive to win. The better chance you have. You have to reslize the men putting in this effort are also showing up with a quality hound. That's the game we play.

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Dave Richards
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Bruce Conkey

You left out the real reason why these things happen, it all boils down to greed. Human nature at it's finest, lost is the Honor and Dignity that should be foremost. All some folks want is to win at any cost, gone is the pride and honor in Winning fair and square in a level playing field. I don't see how winning by any means could be desired by anyone, but it seems that some are satisfied with doing so. Let's just say that's not my style and never was. When I competition hunted it was to win fairly and treat everyone with respect. I refused to hunt off buckets as I consider that to be unfair and does not prove a dogs true ability. Most started pups look good on buckets, nuff said. Dave

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3368

Re: Bruce Conkey

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
You left out the real reason why these things happen, it all boils down to greed. Human nature at it's finest, lost is the Honor and Dignity that should be foremost. All some folks want is to win at any cost, gone is the pride and honor in Winning fair and square in a level playing field. I don't see how winning by any means could be desired by anyone, but it seems that some are satisfied with doing so. Let's just say that's not my style and never was. When I competition hunted it was to win fairly and treat everyone with respect. I refused to hunt off buckets as I consider that to be unfair and does not prove a dogs true ability. Most started pups look good on buckets, nuff said. Dave
I hear that some are going so far as changing their gender to win. That's a little more drastic than hunting on buckets.

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Dave Richards
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Re: Re: Bruce Conkey

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
I hear that some are going so far as changing their gender to win. That's a little more drastic than hunting on buckets.


Lol. You got that right. It seems there is nothing that some folks will do just to "win", not realizing that it really means nothing in the long run. Winning by such means has to be a disappointment in the long run, NO one respects someone that wins any event by such methods. Respect means much more that a shallow win. Dave

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walkerman75
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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: berkeley springs w va
Posts: 448

Re: Re: While weíre talking about scores..

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I'd like to take some time to discuss this. I've been in the Grand 16- 4 times in the last 8 years. I haven't broke 1000 yet I have broken 700 all 4 times I do believe. I have someone who also hunts English dogs guide me and he takes pride in putting the cast in good hunting. There's a few factors that need to take place to have a good score. The first and most important is the hunting and racoon population. The second is a dog that can tree 4-5 in 2 hours(not hard to do when in a good coon population) and third the right group of dogs. Meaning they aren't separating 1000s of yards apart each turn out.

As far as the winter classic and grand American go. I'd venture to say that almost all scores breaking 1000 are over some type of feed. There's nothing in UKC rules that prevents it and that's why you see it every year. On one hand, I think it's distasteful and low , on the other I applaud the hunters for putting the time and work in to have the opportunity to score high.

Everybody hunts over feed of some sort. I been hunting autumn oaks since 2000. I'm from wv an I have drawn somebody who guides on corn or soybeans every yr. A 100 acre cornfield is just a big feeder bucket ... we're I live u either need a few buckets in random spots or u need farmers who plant crops.. or you are gonna walk your guts out climbing mountains to maybe tree one. We got thin coons..





What needs to happen is the cast needs to absolutely always have 3 voting members. If the cast gets down to 2 dogs for whatever reason a third must stay or be written up. If it's a health issue then return to the club for a 3rd member. This won't solve everything, but anyone that's been to hunts can see how a 2 dog cast can turn ugly in multiple ways.

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Redneck Mafia
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Re: Re: While weíre talking about scores..

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I'd like to take some time to discuss this. I've been in the Grand 16- 4 times in the last 8 years. I haven't broke 1000 yet I have broken 700 all 4 times I do believe. I have someone who also hunts English dogs guide me and he takes pride in putting the cast in good hunting. There's a few factors that need to take place to have a good score. The first and most important is the hunting and racoon population. The second is a dog that can tree 4-5 in 2 hours(not hard to do when in a good coon population) and third the right group of dogs. Meaning they aren't separating 1000s of yards apart each turn out.

As far as the winter classic and grand American go. I'd venture to say that almost all scores breaking 1000 are over some type of feed. There's nothing in UKC rules that prevents it and that's why you see it every year. On one hand, I think it's distasteful and low , on the other I applaud the hunters for putting the time and work in to have the opportunity to score high.

What needs to happen is the cast needs to absolutely always have 3 voting members. If the cast gets down to 2 dogs for whatever reason a third must stay or be written up. If it's a health issue then return to the club for a 3rd member. This won't solve everything, but anyone that's been to hunts can see how a 2 dog cast can turn ugly in multiple ways.


Trevor you left our the last one it takes to bring on a good score and that's a cast that can all flat out walk for 2 hours! Many times we have not been able to not because of slow moving cast members. Cheyenne actually withdrew from Saturday night zone last year because of it. He hadn't won on Fri and knew he would need a pretty decent score to get in Saturday. He drew an older gentleman that had some difficulty getting around had won his cast Friday. Chey and another guy withdrew with a lot of time left and plus points. He stayed on to judge him and another. I remember the last drop they're was 39 minutes left when this man's dog treed 600 yard away it took all that and more to get to the tree. He ended up a double cast winner. You are at the mercy of the slowest person. Sad but true and not meant to be offensive of those who can't walk like others or their faster days are behind them.

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Old Post 02-27-2024 03:27 AM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5626

Scores

There was a thread on this Forum that congratulated the Winter Classic Winners and has been viewed by over 1000 and NOT 1 response or reply to this thread. It sure seems like no one respected the High Score winner in this case. Having at least a 4 dog hunt off would gather more respect for the Winner. I just do not think a 1 cast high score is ever going to get much respect, nor should they. Winning 1 cast hunting in a honey hole off feed means nothing. Dave

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Old Post 02-27-2024 04:17 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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Re: Scores

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
There was a thread on this Forum that congratulated the Winter Classic Winners and has been viewed by over 1000 and NOT 1 response or reply to this thread. It sure seems like no one respected the High Score winner in this case. Having at least a 4 dog hunt off would gather more respect for the Winner. I just do not think a 1 cast high score is ever going to get much respect, nor should they. Winning 1 cast hunting in a honey hole off feed means nothing. Dave



I would agree with a lot of the opinions but there are also a lot of logistics involved far beyond a format for a major event and to be able to maintain a large entry event. If all events were set up the same, I'd think folks would get bored quickly with that too.

Winning one cast? They hunted off feeders?

Considering there are 7-800 entries competing over the two nights, I'd bet the conversation wouldn't change much at all if there was a top-four championship.

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Old Post 02-27-2024 05:44 PM
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Dave Richards
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Location: church hill tn
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Re: Re: Scores

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I would agree with a lot of the opinions but there are also a lot of logistics involved far beyond a format for a major event and to be able to maintain a large entry event. If all events were set up the same, I'd think folks would get bored quickly with that too.

Winning one cast? They hunted off feeders?

Considering there are 7-800 entries competing over the two nights, I'd bet the conversation wouldn't change much at all if there was a top-four championship.



Allen, You are correct about the logistics, but if this hunt is to taken serious there needs to be some changes. Definitely, not based on a 1 cast high score system, even having a double cast winner that had a Hugh 1 night score proves nothing. My concern is for all of those who hunted given a fair chance, not relying on the slim chance of getting that honey hole advantage. How fair is it that to all those casts that had to hunt in thin coons while a select few were hunting off feeders buckets or deer feeders all the same, as you have coons concentrated in a small area and trees near feeders that coons are easy to spot. Maybe UKC needs to ban hunting off feeders giving all casts a decent chance. Elimination format does away with the honey hole advantages that exists now. Does anyone really think having a hunt format that's fair to all who enter boring? Dave

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Old Post 02-27-2024 05:57 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5626

Scores

UKC has come a long way in recent years regarding the "high" score format in the Night Champion and Grand Night Champion wins based on cast wins and NOT about high score. Changing that format made the hunts fair to all, win your cast was all any hunter could do anyway. Gone now is the honey hole advantage in getting first place and wins based solely on high score. These changes were needed and revived the Night hunts in my opinion. Time to change the major hunts format instead of a high score theme. NO hunter or dog can do more than win their cast, Why should a winner of one cast be rewarded any more than any other cast winner. Making these major hunts fair to all who spend their time, money, and other resources would be a win for everyone. Winning a major hunt should be something to be proud of knowing everyone had a fair chance. Change is needed to say the least, leaving things as they are Now will benefit no one. Why would any serious hunter go to a hunt where the winner is determined solely on a high score? I see attending just to catch up with others, see new hunting items, etc. Definitely not to hunt under the current format where winning is more by chance of a lucky draw. Dave

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Old Post 02-27-2024 06:26 PM
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T Felderman
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Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1869

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Miller
There are plenty elimination hunts out there to go to. The classics are just what they are, and still draw good.. I thought most people knew how they were won or lost.. We have about ruined the hunts by changing them around so much, so I say leave the Big Classics alone and if you just want to go to a hunt to socialize and pray you win the lottery at draw out time.. Go to the big classic hunts..

Agreed

Dave what other major UKC hunts need changed other than the Winter Classic? And I got some news for ya, a dog can do more than just win their cast. I absolutely hate that saying, ďall a dog can do is win its castĒ. Thatís like saying, well my dog treed a coon last night but it took him two hours to do it. Thatís all he can do.

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