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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14773

It sounds to me like there was a problem with dogs babbling back then also. So the rule used to be 3 minutes on the first dump only? I am assuming handlers/ hunters were having a problem with that so they complained and got it changed to 1 minute on every drop. Did they think that would stop the dogs from babbling? Why didn't they change the rule to 3 minutes on every drop? With the way dogs are hunted these days, you are not going to slow them down with just one drop. They are just as wide open and excited after 2 hrs as they were at the beginning.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 04:23 PM
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jdgher
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1545

I remember

I remember how it was before the "babbling allowed" rule. A dog that babbled wasn't worth anything to a competition hunter. Wide open, high strung dogs usually didn't last long in the world. People bred to winners, so dogs got pretty tight. My dog was a pretty tight mouth hound and so were most others. I didn't like the "babbling allowed" rule when it started and for several years after.
At least now you get to hear a dog work a track and I kinda like that. So it hasn't been all bad.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14773

So the rule was changed because dogs were getting too "tight" and hunters didn't like that? I have found that if you breed to old frozen semen or linebreed on the older lines that you get tight mouthed pups. And now dogs are getting too "loose"? It is a shame that we can't reach a happy medium. It sure is awfully hard to get pups that are open trailing first strike dogs that don't babble. It can be done but it sure is hard. It is just like trying to breed for super quick tree dogs that are still accurate.

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sleepy head
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1692

Re: simple fix

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
If cant determine babble, any dog barking within 10 seconds left on the minute goes in for 50!


Or, you have to strike your dog on 3rd bark, all dogs struck before 1 minute go in for 50 no matter if he's babbling or not. 100 doesn't become available until the minute is over. 30 seconds might be better. Just a thought

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Old Post 10-15-2018 11:17 PM
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berger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2598

You guys are getting closer for what needs to happen. I would like to see the babbling rule disappear and the minus points with it. All dogs struck on or before the 3rd bark. Any dog struck in the first 30seconds of being cut loose would receive 25points. Dogs struck after the 30 seconds would be eligible for available points 100,75,50.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 11:36 PM
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jdgher
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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1545

Maybe this

how about this. No strike will be accepted within the first minute. When the minute is up, call your dogs on or before the 3rd bark. Most babbling dogs will have settled down by 1 minute.

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Old Post 10-16-2018 12:07 AM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14773

Mr Berger, that makes sense. Babblers would not get minused but would only get 25 on strike. And the dog that could keep his mouth shut for 30 seconds with another dog babbling could then get 100. And if 2 or even 3 dogs left out barking, they would all only get 25 strike points. That would take all of the arguing out of it. And that would also stop guides from turning loose right on top of a bucket or creek.

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
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Posts: 1

This is my first time posting on here. I do more reading than saying. I know am asking for trouble getting on here , because a coonhunter doesnít need enemies , we can manage that getting on here seems like. By the way I do like to competition hunt. Only get on here waiting on dark or when itís to hot. The way I see it is strick points are a joke .When a dog sounds the same in the box going down the road as he does being struck off the leash an should I say going 2 miles deep before he trees. If we canít agree that dog is babbling something is wrong. Before someone comes back with a smart comment thatís the way it is. A true hounds men knows when one is right.Do away with strick points an award the dog that trees the coon. 125 first tree an anything that comes in after a minute goes in for 25. Ok , let me have it, I know itís coming

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Old Post 10-16-2018 12:33 AM
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Chuck Allen
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Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 696

Just make all strikes 25 across the board that should solve the problem. Maybe but I highly doubt it.

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jdgher
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1545

Re: Maybe this

quote:
Originally posted by jdgher
how about this. No strike will be accepted within the first minute. When the minute is up, call your dogs on or before the 3rd bark. Most babbling dogs will have settled down by 1 minute.


That sounds like a great Idea...

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Old Post 10-16-2018 06:22 AM
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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3017

Re: Maybe this

quote:
Originally posted by jdgher
how about this. No strike will be accepted within the first minute. When the minute is up, call your dogs on or before the 3rd bark. Most babbling dogs will have settled down by 1 minute.

Lots of coon are treed within the first minute of the hunt. Why punish dogs that are striking and treeing coons by disallowing the strike.
No rule is going to prevent the barking everytime their foot hits the ground or still mouth dogs. If the former is ending with a coon and only one dog in a cast can carry a strike for the others needs to be heard only once every 8 minutes and the later typically called struck on the tree then wait and tree the dog they only have to be heard one time in an entire hunt to be considered not still mouth.

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Old Post 10-17-2018 05:24 PM
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Rocketman55
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2112

Sure some interesting comments thats for sure, some have some merit some are a little far fetched for me.

Back during the inception of this competition coon hunting coons were much more scarce thus tracks were further apart, making the value of a hounds striking ability go up, if that dog had the good sense, to not only know where to go looking for a track, but have enough nose to unravel this track, even if that coon had traveled through that area many hours prior to the hound coming through there.

Now that the coon population as increased significantly throughout (most ) of the US, and especially so here in the mid west, it doesn't require quite as much skill/talent to come across a coon track as it did back in the late 50's and early 60"s.

May I suggest something similar as has already been suggested but with a little different twist.

How bout this. any/all dogs opening and declared struck during the first 30 seconds of each drop to receive 35 strike points. Then any dog that opens from 31 seconds through 60 seconds, to receive 25 strike points.

My reasoning for this is that it doesn't take a special hunting ability to strike a track that is within 30 seconds of where you are turning loose. Secondly any dog that strikes within the next 30 seconds, could possibly be a little tight anyway as if there really was a track within that first 30 seconds, the dog should have opened anyway.

After one minute of full silence with no dogs barking, the strike should then be accepted as called, 100-75-50-25.

This would help to reduce points stolen from an automatic strike dog, yet still reward a dog that finds a track that it was not turned loose on top of.

I know this is not perfect, as it would still penalize that dog with good sense, inside that first minute. But think this one through and see what you think of this idea.

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Old Post 10-19-2018 01:49 AM
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Mark V.
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: Sullivan IL.
Posts: 2893

The rule in UKC gives me 1min to beat the babbler. If a dog leaves babling and the handler waits a minute can you still minus him ? YES

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Old Post 10-19-2018 02:02 AM
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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 696

I think a lot of the babbling actually comes from competition hunting with strange dogs , and it is a learned behavior , I have 1 female that only babbles some with other dogs on the first turn out at a competition hunt every time , hunt her by herself or with her pack mates not a problem ever.

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Old Post 10-19-2018 12:11 PM
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Rocketman55
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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2112

I agree Mr. Allen. I too have a female that usually will not loose mouth, coming off the strap. But when put with a dog that gets all wired up prior to being unsnapped, it seems to amp her up a bit to, as I think one dog in a cast can amp up the whole group by this one dogs behavior.

Dogs are one of the best animals at reading body language, and one dogs body language can certainly affect the behavior of multiple dogs in that group.

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Old Post 10-19-2018 03:15 PM
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Nathan Phenix
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 154

If you want see if dog goin babble get them lined up to cut them then hold off for min make dogs stand there collared and ready to cut for lil while. It will get them excited enough that if there goin loose bark they will. I had female if I waited to very last second unsnap her she wouldnt loose bark. If stood holding her ready to cut her for lil while she bark few times when cut. Or I also so dogs that when dogs are cut loose the handler hold back for just sec to get him babbling. Lots tricks to get that strike if guy wants when bad enough. After all who wouldnt cheat for piece paper.

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Old Post 10-19-2018 05:56 PM
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J I Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 624

Everybody talks about a tree countdown, how about something similar with strike points. The one minute rule was put in place so excited dogs could get the wire edge off and settle down and go hunting. Here's my idea for the babbling dog that the handlers use to get 100 strike points on everyone. If you strike your dog in the first minute you can only get 25 points that's for every dog on the cast that is struck in the first minute, that way nobody has an advantage over anybody. If you wait until after one minute to strike your dog, strike points go back as they are currently 100, 75, 50, 25. This should help the honest strike dog and stop the babblers from getting 100 strike points every drop. Judges have a hard time enforcing the babbling dog and this might help with that problem

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Old Post 10-20-2018 01:39 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14773

Mr Allen, I like that proposal. Maybe they should have a trial of that in the Super Slams. They tried doing away with the one minute babbling rule and nobody liked it so they put it back in.

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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3017

quote:
Originally posted by J I Allen
Everybody talks about a tree countdown, how about something similar with strike points. The one minute rule was put in place so excited dogs could get the wire edge off and settle down and go hunting. Here's my idea for the babbling dog that the handlers use to get 100 strike points on everyone. If you strike your dog in the first minute you can only get 25 points that's for every dog on the cast that is struck in the first minute, that way nobody has an advantage over anybody. If you wait until after one minute to strike your dog, strike points go back as they are currently 100, 75, 50, 25. This should help the honest strike dog and stop the babblers from getting 100 strike points every drop. Judges have a hard time enforcing the babbling dog and this might help with that problem

What are you going to do with the dogs that strike and tree coon in the first minute. Many of y'all ideas punish these dogs if they are getting treed right out of the gate.

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7221

Jennifer let me ask you let them babble for 3 minutes the first drop then after that on or before the third bark to eliminate those who leave rattling off the snap every drop is that not fair ? We all know you can train a dog to keep his yapper shut off the snap we also know a lot of hunters like to have to have the option if they are behind a little to strike their dog on the babble. You get a babbler that never shuts up that trees coons to it can cause you to have a meltdown !!



Tar

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Old Post 10-21-2018 03:17 AM
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jkidd1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2024

IMO,
Every time a dog is recut and is found to be on his own separate tree he should go back in for 100 strike, not 25. IMO he indeed had the first strike on that track, even if ol "100 bark off the lead" is still running all over barking his brains out.

This way that quick strike machine is gona have to be putting some coons with it if he wants to beat ol "last strike honest Abe"

I'm sure this could be a rule the needs a little critiquing but something close would be nice

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Richard Lambert
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Nobody trees a coon in a minute around my house.

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