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epigenetics is being studied all over the world by many scientist for all types of reasons...they are doing this by manipulating the cell environment, animal, or even human environment just to name a few...it could be by changing diet, temperature or just about anything they can dream of...

The scientists have discovered how environment manipulation creates changes and through these experiments they are learning and understanding many things depending on their field of practice...

Male mice have been exposed to extreme cold temperatures and then when bred to females the offspring stayed slender and this continued for three generations...the mice in the comfortable environment when bred their offspring became obese and developed diseases like diabetes and heart disease...

we sometimes say things like survival of the fittest, a part of evolution causes the the changes if a species is to survive...but now we can actually begin to understand there are other ways that can create these changes...Epigenetics probably has always been a part of evolution...we are in the early stages of understanding how it works through experimentation...

As we better understand we can manipulate the puppies environment to get better results as working dogs or as a minimum improve our changes...some of us call it socializing, some call it imprinting the pups...it seems it isn't much different than epigenetics just different names or descriptions...

Back during 9-11-2001 (911), during the twin tower episode their were pregnant women that were in that ordeal who developed PTSD...
When their babies were born they also developed mental issues similar to PTSD...

When we intentionally create a puppy imprinting scenario to make it a positive outcome it must be made enjoyable for the pup and not overdo it...otherwise, what we are trying to create will actually become a negative...and then we will wonder why the pup is not coming along well in his training...

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I have been reading about imprinting about different types of animals...most are legitimate studies by scientists...

I also read one that was written by a working dog kennel...they said two things that caught my interest...puppies between 8 and 10 weeks old tend to be fearful and this goes way back to the wolves and is a part of evolution...too bold wolf Cubs that venture off from the den could get lost or get eaten by other predators and these Cubs and traits would be eliminated from the gene pool...

This fear factor appears again between 5 and 6 months...I am thinking this has to do for becoming more cautious while learning to hunt, they need this fear factor to keep them from getting hurt on dangerous, such as preventing a broke jaw from a moose or elk kick etc...

Knowing these things can help us to a certain extent...we as humans manipulate how we breed dogs so these traits might not be as strong...but we should take this knowledge into consideration...

I can give two examples...

9 week old pup...way back when we were young my brother bought a large type Airedale...just a beautiful pup...the first thing he did was throw that pup in the bed of his truck and was headed to his friends house to show off his new pup...he didn’t think the pup would jump out but he did, luckily he was leaving a stop sign so he was rolling slow...this Airedale never got over loading up...we had to physically pick up and load that 80 pound dog every time...where he planted his feet you couldn’t budge him and he would shake like he was freezing to death...all because of that one incident...

At 6 months...

About 7 or 8 years ago I kept what I thought was the best pup...he had the looks and was smart...I brought him along on hunts and he was doing well...I knew he was going to make a good hog dog...on this particular morning he was in a heavy 4 or 5 acre briar patch trailing and looking for the pigs...when he found a few pigs bedded down they worked him over some and that pup came out of that patch and quit hunting after that...just that one incident was enough to ruin this pup...

So thinking back on this incident...if I had put in a bay pen and let him bay and gain confidence he more than likely would have been ok...

I gave this pup until 10 months to overcome this mistake I caused and then gave him to someone who thought they could fix this pup...

But I also see it this way...if this incident is enough to cause this issue with the pup I don’t want the pup... I want the pup to have that mentality to be able to handle some a challenge of this type on account it wasn’t that bad...i have had pups handle more in controlled environments...if I choose to breed that pup one day I would prefer the pup to possess the mental toughness I like...

We as humans breed for certain traits...we do not breed according to Mother Nature’s laws and mother nature’s laws vary according to conditions that apply to present locations in the wild...so maybe these traits don’t apply as much but it is something to consider...

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This is a deep topic that I thoroughly enjoy. It provokes deep thought and multiple theories. I’ve always heard that if 1/4 of a litter turns out to be good dogs, then it was a good cross, though I’ve never bought into that. I believe we should be aiming for a higher average than that.

If the entire litter is raised in the same environment, same temps, same socialization, exposed to the same obstacles, given the same opportunities and so on, I feel that we would see a better percentage turning out.. You can take it one step further knowing what to expect in the 8-10 week and 5-6 month time frames where you would now expect the pups to be a little on the cautious side this is where you would be inspiring confidence, instead of testing the dogs grit. I think the main problem with “1/4 of a litter turning out” is they are rarely all treated the same, and given the same opportunity, if not abused or neglected by some also

I’ve been exactly where you were in your second example. My question is this, do you think if the particular pup hadn’t been exposed in that time frame, would it have still developed the fear later on? I kept 1/2 of the last 2 litters I raised. The earlier of the two litters I had my eye on the ugliest boldest pup in the bunch. I kept 2 others totaling 3 out of the 6. At 6 months one of the others was trailing and making bear trees with the big dogs, at 10 months the second pup (not my pick of the litter) started to make trees and click. At almost 16 months my pick had had the same amount of exposure to game, same truck time, same wood time, same trail time, seen nearly as many bear as the other 2, yet she kept getting more and more shy. I finally threw in the towel and called it quits when I saw that 4 of the 5 that were currently being hunted, were going above and beyond for their age.

After reading your post I now wonder if there was something I did without noticing in the 8-10 week or 5-6 month window to cause her setbacks, or was it bred into her. If you hadn’t put your pup in that situation in that particular time frame, do you think it would have been a different outcome. You also say that it’s probably not one you would breed to even if it had come out of it.... I’ll go one step further and ask if you think a lot more choice pups are eventually bred to, that may have cracked under pressure if they had been exposed to a tough situation in the wrong age window? These are all just questions in my head. One of the wisest men i know constantly tells me he’s been studying hounds for years, and he still doesn’t know any more about em now, than he did when he started. i think that about sums it up.

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Ruben this may now be a scientific experiment to prove the outcome. But I will share a secret with you. There have been a certain few in the dog world, handling many different breeds that understand this exact same thing. They never put a title on it. They were just known as DOGMEN. These men didn't and don't need scientist to spend years to prove to them that handling a puppy correctly is the secret to success. Only thing I feel is the scientist will think all puppies will respond to the correct environment. The DOGMEN know some would not and knew when to bury their losses. Scientist working off my tax dollar will never give up on a dog they can't fix. They will just start another study. Spend more money and confuse the minds of those already confused as to why they can't train a dog.

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Bruce what you said is 100% correct!

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I know that the imprinting thing has been used on horses for years with success. I don’t see where the same wouldn’t apply to dogs.

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It most definitely works. But the people involved have follow a guideline. Many men from the past understood and followed the guideline, naturally. Just didn't realize in the modern era there would be titles and books for people to read, understand and try and follow. Kind of like people are looking for that natural dog. If dog could talk I think most would be looking for a natural DogMan to own them and train them. Lot less painful on both parties. Johnny there are a lot of genetic information from the Hors and Cow industry that shows Line and Family breeding gets results. I have never disputed that but the results have always been measurable or Tangible. In the dog world the results once you get past conformation and color. Generally are intangible and someones opinion. Find a handful of coon hunters that agree on style. Most find a style and then brag on it and don't have a clue how to maintain it. When their breeding produces a different style the then brag on it. Then all the style in the world starts to produce hounds that don't have coons in a tree and the breeders figure out a way to spin that into something positive. I feel the only difference in todays dogs and dogs from the past is. More hounds today are born with the ability to make a decent dog. But it takes the same type of DogMan sense to take a dog to to the top. Today or yesterday. 50 years ago there was a clear line dividing the good dogs for the sorry dogs and it was easier to figure out which ones needed to be culled. The men behind the dogs also know that needed to be done. Today more hounds have pedigrees from parents that have won thousands of dollars. Many of these no one can train. No one will cull. Because the glitter or its ancestors makes someone think they should sell it or own it. We live in a time where many including myself are collectors of hounds. Hounds collected and not given a chance or in the right environment to reach their full potential is a problem in this sport. This issue is second behind not culling one that should be culled.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-19-2020 at 04:30 PM

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What do you feel has caused the culling issue? Is it that the handlers have became soft? Or the fact that money has been put in the mix? Coon dogs of yesteryear were judged on the amount of furs they produced in a season, where as now furs are hardly worth the time. Has this played a role in the hound handling communities inability to cull? Or do we just no longer understand that not all dogs make it?

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Years ago a lot of dogs were culled because they wouldn't tree. Now a lot of them should be culled because they tree too much. It's easier to sell a slick treer than a non treer.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by 5thgearwide
This is a deep topic that I thoroughly enjoy. It provokes deep thought and multiple theories. I’ve always heard that if 1/4 of a litter turns out to be good dogs, then it was a good cross, though I’ve never bought into that. I believe we should be aiming for a higher average than that.
If the entire litter is raised in the same environment, same temps, same socialization, exposed to the same obstacles, given the same opportunities and so on, I feel that we would see a better percentage turning out.. You can take it one step further knowing what to expect in the 8-10 week and 5-6 month time frames where you would now expect the pups to be a little on the cautious side this is where you would be inspiring confidence, instead of testing the dogs grit. I think the main problem with “1/4 of a litter turning out” is they are rarely all treated the same, and given the same opportunity, if not abused or neglected by some also

I’ve been exactly where you were in your second example. My question is this, do you think if the particular pup hadn’t been exposed in that time frame, would it have still developed the fear later on? I kept 1/2 of the last 2 litters I raised. The earlier of the two litters I had my eye on the ugliest boldest pup in the bunch. I kept 2 others totaling 3 out of the 6. At 6 months one of the others was trailing and making bear trees with the big dogs, at 10 months the second pup (not my pick of the litter) started to make trees and click. At almost 16 months my pick had had the same amount of exposure to game, same truck time, same wood time, same trail time, seen nearly as many bear as the other 2, yet she kept getting more and more shy. I finally threw in the towel and called it quits when I saw that 4 of the 5 that were currently being hunted, were going above and beyond for their age.

After reading your post I now wonder if there was something I did without noticing in the 8-10 week or 5-6 month window to cause her setbacks, or was it bred into her.

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Ruben this may now be a scientific experiment to prove the outcome. But I will share a secret with you. There have been a certain few in the dog world, handling many different breeds that understand this exact same thing. They never put a title on it. They were just known as DOGMEN. These men didn't and don't need scientist to spend years to prove to them that handling a puppy correctly is the secret to success. Only thing I feel is the scientist will think all puppies will respond to the correct environment. The DOGMEN know some would not and knew when to bury their losses. Scientist working off my tax dollar will never give up on a dog they can't fix. They will just start another study. Spend more money and confuse the minds of those already confused as to why they can't train a dog.

---

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I've done a lot of research on my self the last 20 some yrs. Yrs ago I found a study on fox I thought was very interesting. It made me change my way of thinking in ways. https://evolution-outreach.biomedce...2052-018-0090-x

As far as the culling goes, honestly unless it's for health reasons or aggression issues it's not needed. The problem is the trainers, or lack there of. We live in a world of instant gradifatcation. If it don't come easy or right now, most guys write them off as a cull. My 70 yr old mother can turn any pup, or dog into a coondog that can compete with the very best. Not because she trains them to be coondogs but rather she gives them the chance to be a coondog. She walks 2 miles everyday, no matter the weather. She walks through tiny patch woods, fence rows, open farm field (with crops) and RR thickets. She takes a pack of hounds with her. Every pup she has ever raised turned into nice solid coondogs. It's simply the fact that they are in the woods around game. They learn to track and tree on there own. She don't brake out the shock collar till they start to run deer on site. She puts a stop to that pretty fast. She has raised whole litters that were coondogs. She always takes a pup out of my litters and they always start running and treeing months before mine. I do all the drags and cut out coon and ground work trainning on my pups. I get them to the woods at least 4 days a week. But hers are always ahead of mine. When I have one that I don't think will make it I take it to her. In less than 3 months she has them cranking. All I have to do is fine tune them. All these "culls" have it in them it's the trainers that don't.

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Rebecca Agee

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One thing I read a while back talked about how testosterone and estrogen is past from fetus in the womb. So if you have a female in between several males in the womb they will be born with and continue to produce more testosterone than the normal female. Same goes for males among females born with more estrogen. This can lead to dogs with agression or shyness.

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Rebecca Agee

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quote:

---

Originally posted by River Birch Run
I've done a lot of research on my self the last 20 some yrs. Yrs ago I found a study on fox I thought was very interesting. It made me change my way of thinking in ways. https://evolution-outreach.biomedce...2052-018-0090-x

As far as the culling goes, honestly unless it's for health reasons or aggression issues it's not needed. The problem is the trainers, or lack there of. We live in a world of instant gradifatcation. If it don't come easy or right now, most guys write them off as a cull. My 70 yr old mother can turn any pup, or dog into a coondog that can compete with the very best. Not because she trains them to be coondogs but rather she gives them the chance to be a coondog. She walks 2 miles everyday, no matter the weather. She walks through tiny patch woods, fence rows, open farm field (with crops) and RR thickets. She takes a pack of hounds with her. Every pup she has ever raised turned into nice solid coondogs. It's simply the fact that they are in the woods around game. They learn to track and tree on there own. She don't brake out the shock collar till they start to run deer on site. She puts a stop to that pretty fast. She has raised whole litters that were coondogs. She always takes a pup out of my litters and they always start running and treeing months before mine. I do all the drags and cut out coon and ground work trainning on my pups. I get them to the woods at least 4 days a week. But hers are always ahead of mine. When I have one that I don't think will make it I take it to her. In less than 3 months she has them cranking. All I have to do is fine tune them. All these "culls" have it in them it's the trainers that don't.

---

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I define a "coondog" as one that gets treed fast, stays treed all nite if needed to. Not trashy, and 90% accurate. 1st strike, 1st tree type that does not pack, but will let other dogs tree with them. In thick coon or thin coon they get the job done, in ANY part of the country. A real coondog you can take of the chain it don't matter if its been a yr since it's been cut loose it will still look better in the woods than the avg dog thats being hunted every nite. But I have high standards. They have to be all of that and not do things I don't like as well. It don't make them less of a coondog I just don't like it. I. E. Bark too much on track, or sit down to tree, or all chop track and tree. And many, many more things.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by River Birch Run
I define a "coondog" as one that gets treed fast, stays treed all nite if needed to. Not trashy, and 90% accurate. 1st strike, 1st tree type that does not pack, but will let other dogs tree with them. In thick coon or thin coon they get the job done, in ANY part of the country. A real coondog you can take of the chain it don't matter if its been a yr since it's been cut loose it will still look better in the woods than the avg dog thats being hunted every nite. But I have high standards. They have to be all of that and not do things I don't like as well. It don't make them less of a coondog I just don't like it. I. E. Bark too much on track, or sit down to tree, or all chop track and tree. And many, many more things.

---

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I come from a farming background, genetics have always intrigued me. Genetics have come so far in cattle that I can artificially breed a group of 12 heifers to 12 different straws. And if they are sexed semen you can just about guarantee the color, sex, birth weight, weaning weight, yearling weight, and a lot more. Yet when it comes to hounds, (particularly big game hounds in my standpoint) you can breed for size, conformation, more than likely you’ll get the same mannerisms as the parents in several pups.... but you can’t breed for brains, heart, drive, and grit, in my humble opinion. Coon dogs are a little different than the hounds I’m raising that are geared more for bear. A dog can look like a million bucks on a running bear that trees, but if that same dog won’t stick with a mean bear on the ground, it’s a cull. Some dogs have it, and some don’t. I’d like to think that every dog I ever raise will make it, but I just don’t see that happening and I’m willing to accept that they don’t all make it. That’s the main difference I see in the big game hounds vs the coon hounds, not trying to stir the pot or start a debate but if I have a dog that will blow up on the rig, start a cold track the right way, trail it up, jump the bear, run to catch.... but then tucks tail when the bear decides it’d rather fight than climb. Then that dog in my opinion is lacking a few things that it takes to “make a bear dog”. Here’s where I normally light the fuse. I can take that same dog and keep putting him on coon tracks, and he’ll make a good coon dog, because a coon doesn’t weigh 250 pounds and decide at some point that it wants to kill you, instead of climbing. Some people may be able to make a top dog out of every pup they ever handle, and my hats off to em. But until I’m able to do that I’ll continue to breed best to best, and cull those that don’t make the cut.

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5thgearwide

I have a friend that managed a big ranch and he used to tell me all that breeding information you talk about...pretty impressive for way back then and even for now...

Well you seem to know your bear dogs and my learning is from talking to many bear dog men...

This is what was told to me by those I thought had the most experience with hog and bear...and these two things they all said...

A good bear dog will make a good hog dog...a good hog dog might make a good bear dog or it might not...and a bear dog might not respect a big boar...

I bought a few other plotts out of bear dogs that were converted to hog dogs and they were a little weak on casting, they just didn’t have what it took to find...not even in fresh sign...
I was thinking maybe too much emphasis was put on starting them from a track or from a feed bucket and possibly failed to see if the dogs had the ability to locate as a good Plott hound should...

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I can agree with everything you’ve said in your last post. I also think that the casting you speak of, or the inability to do so, all coms back to the foundation of the hound. I try to start all my hounds on coon. I feel that it teaches them how to cast, strike, trail, and tree. Bear are getting to be thick enough that here lately some of the dogs have skipped the coon phase and went straight to bear which is fine by me, but I have seen some negative effects. I also believe in putting the young dogs down first on a hot rig and giving them the chance to start a track before I put a veteran on it. I think this is one way you can avoid the piggybacking or “me-tooing” that is way too easy to start as a habit. I also think that guys that constantly run off of bait can essentially “take the hunt” out of a dog or the free casting that you speak of. Sure those dogs might look good in that situation and you can show that you’re catching game but it’s usually not hard to pick one out that’s been repeatedly hunted off bait, they don’t know how to look, because they’ve never been forced to. Very similar to a spoiled child.

I think that like the majority of things in this world, the foundation is one of the most important, yet underrated and under appreciated phases. I expect a bear dog to free cast, rig, road, strike, trail, run to catch, stay with a mean one, or stay treed as long as it takes, and to do it with or without help. Part of that comes from the breeding, part from the foundation, and i believe the rest is ample opportunity and necessary correction. These dogs are a lot more rare than most realize. There are bear packs, and there are bear dogs. My goal is to have a pack of bear dogs.

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Sounds like we think the same and like the same type of dogs...

The foundation is very important as is selecting and keeping the absolute best pups...otherwise why do it...and of those breed those that rise to the top...these types
are what make up the foundation...

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A wise man told me “Good dogs are never for sale, but sometimes they can be bought” took me a little while to understand what he meant, but it makes sense now. Raise the best, build them up, give them a fair chance, and let instinct do the rest.

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So many factors 😊lol
Personality traits also fall into line here, all the talent in the world and no mental toughness, fault?
We will never create robots that are perfect because of all these factors, a good breeder will make good crosses, put them in the right environment, cull the problems and pick the cream of the crop.
As a breeder I see way more problems today, with trainers than I do breeding😁
People leave them in a pen then expect presto!
Never work on personality issues, or quit at the least little thing,blows my mind how they think a top hound is made?
Nothing in this World is perfect, take hard work and effort to keep top hounds.

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Our dogs are no different than our dinner tables. We have got to the point that the genetics are there in most hounds. With with proper handling, care, and experiences. They will make some type of coonhound.

The same goes for that apple pie or pumpkin pie we will be eating next week. The same ingredients in that pie will be served all across the nation. The same ingredients that Mom used. Most of the pies WILL NOT turn out like Moms. Will not taste as good, will not be as sweet and will just not be the same. An apple is an apple, flour is flour, sugar is sugar. Then why the difference. Mom knew what she was doing. Dogmen know what they are doing.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Are you saying that every dog your mother has trained fits the above description?

---

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Rebecca Agee

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quote:

---

Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
So many factors 😊lol
Personality traits also fall into line here, all the talent in the world and no mental toughness, fault?
We will never create robots that are perfect because of all these factors, a good breeder will make good crosses, put them in the right environment, cull the problems and pick the cream of the crop.
As a breeder I see way more problems today, with trainers than I do breeding😁
People leave them in a pen then expect presto!
Never work on personality issues, or quit at the least little thing,blows my mind how they think a top hound is made?
Nothing in this World is perfect, take hard work and effort to keep top hounds.

---

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