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BradD20
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2015
Location: Oliver Springs, TN
Posts: 72

Singling out a young dog

I have a 1.5 year old male out of a litter of mine. I didnít own him up until he was around a year old. When he was young he would run and tree with the older dogs. Then he got laid up for a couple months before i got him back. Now with my older dogs he will get in there and take 1st and 1st almost every time. Will run the track like he wants to be in front. I cut him alone and he will hunt real slow usually not ranging out more than 300-400 unless he hits a track. Also, he tends to be a little junky when heís alone but he hasnít had much correction on this yet. He will run and tree his own coon if he ranges out far enough to hit a track. Think he just needs to be put in the woods a bunch by himself until he starts going hunting good? Seems to me like he has a lot of potential.

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Old Post 11-04-2019 02:33 PM
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Ron Ashbaugh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4723

At that age and exposure there is only one thing to do, take the dog hunting for 30 nights of good weather, keep a journal so you don't over shoot the good and undershoot the bad. If after 30 days, evaluate, and he is either doing it or not doing it on a consistent basis.

I really think over the years dogs have gotten too watered down because we as the owners want to take more and more responsibility and "giving them a chance"

I am all for a dog getting a chance, but years ago I read on there about your biggest regret in coonhunting and a fella who had seen and done it all posted "the wasted time on junk dogs" I had to experience it all for myself but now I totally agree. A decent to good coondog doesn't need a bunch of coaxing and secret training methods to go tree a coon. Once they have treed one, they know how to do it, from then on out its a honing of a skill and motivation. They either get good enough to keep around or not, thats the bottom line and that line is drawn by you.

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The fun is over once you pull the trigger

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CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

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Old Post 11-04-2019 05:08 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 841

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh

I really think over the years dogs have gotten too watered down because we as the owners want to take more and more responsibility and "giving them a chance"

I am all for a dog getting a chance, but years ago I read on there about your biggest regret in coonhunting and a fella who had seen and done it all posted "the wasted time on junk dogs" I had to experience it all for myself but now I totally agree. A decent to good coondog doesn't need a bunch of coaxing and secret training methods to go tree a coon. Once they have treed one, they know how to do it, from then on out its a honing of a skill and motivation. They either get good enough to keep around or not, thats the bottom line and that line is drawn by you.



I totally agree...usually a 5 or 6 month old pup will show signs of making a good hunting dog one day...some will even show at a younger age...I want to see a pup on an expected learning curve...mostly a natural ability curve and all I need to do is give the proper exposure and guidance and the pup will do the rest...if they are not on that curve I usually wonít waste my time on them...

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Old Post 11-05-2019 12:56 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 841

Re: Singling out a young dog

quote:
Originally posted by BradD20
I have a 1.5 year old male out of a litter of mine. I didnít own him up until he was around a year old. When he was young he would run and tree with the older dogs. Then he got laid up for a couple months before i got him back. Now with my older dogs he will get in there and take 1st and 1st almost every time. Will run the track like he wants to be in front. I cut him alone and he will hunt real slow usually not ranging out more than 300-400 unless he hits a track. Also, he tends to be a little junky when heís alone but he hasnít had much correction on this yet. He will run and tree his own coon if he ranges out far enough to hit a track. Think he just needs to be put in the woods a bunch by himself until he starts going hunting good? Seems to me like he has a lot of potential.


I believe he has good potential as well...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 11-05-2019 01:00 AM
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nsyd6
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Virginia
Posts: 239

Hunting

What about an older dog that was laid up. Put in good woods hunting out but still not getting struck.

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Old Post 11-05-2019 04:16 AM
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Ron Ashbaugh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4723

No matter how much we read and post and theorize, coonhunting is a bottom line business. If you do your part and put the dog in a decent set of woods it either trees coons or it doesn't. Of course there are going to be bad nights and bad woods and circumstances, but on a regular basis they just flat out need to get it done.

Over the years I have been literally AMAZED at the difference in my perception of the coon population in my area based on what I had on the end of my leash. At times I wondered if they were near extinct and at times I wondered how so many could survive.

The absolute hardest part of coonhunting is finding a good prospect to mess with. Every "try" takes a year and those years add up quickly. The best advice anyone can give is AS SOON AS you see a quality in a pup that you don't like, move on, its expensive, its hard, and its hugely time consuming, but it just is what it is.

If you want to just go coonhunting, skip the pups, save the $1500 it would take you to buy and raise 1 a year for 3 years and find yourself a nice $5000 dog to go hunting with.

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

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Old Post 11-05-2019 01:16 PM
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houndsound
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 564

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
No matter how much we read and post and theorize, coonhunting is a bottom line business. If you do your part and put the dog in a decent set of woods it either trees coons or it doesn't. Of course there are going to be bad nights and bad woods and circumstances, but on a regular basis they just flat out need to get it done.

Over the years I have been literally AMAZED at the difference in my perception of the coon population in my area based on what I had on the end of my leash. At times I wondered if they were near extinct and at times I wondered how so many could survive.

The absolute hardest part of coonhunting is finding a good prospect to mess with. Every "try" takes a year and those years add up quickly. The best advice anyone can give is AS SOON AS you see a quality in a pup that you don't like, move on, its expensive, its hard, and its hugely time consuming, but it just is what it is.

If you want to just go coonhunting, skip the pups, save the $1500 it would take you to buy and raise 1 a year for 3 years and find yourself a nice $5000 dog to go hunting with.



wise

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Old Post 11-05-2019 11:17 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 841

For me the most satisfying is creating my own line of dogs and then breeding to the very best that is related...then test the pups and keep four of the best pups at ten weeks and continue testing and working the pups and cull at one of the four at 6 months and then another at 8 or 9 months and then hang on to the last two and now I have a pair of super nice pups...and it just doesnít get any better than that when we hunt what we raise...and it can only get better on the next generation and then the next...

There are three things that I think are or most importance...

1. Selecting the best dogs to breed

2. Selecting the best pups

3. Training and guiding the pups in helping them to become the best hunting dogs they can be...by doing the right things at the right times and minimizing or eliminating mistakes that can become major setbacks...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 11-06-2019 12:12 AM
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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1267

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
For me the most satisfying is creating my own line of dogs and then breeding to the very best that is related...then test the pups and keep four of the best pups at ten weeks and continue testing and working the pups and cull at one of the four at 6 months and then another at 8 or 9 months and then hang on to the last two and now I have a pair of super nice pups...and it just doesnít get any better than that when we hunt what we raise...and it can only get better on the next generation and then the next...

There are three things that I think are or most importance...

1. Selecting the best dogs to breed

2. Selecting the best pups

3. Training and guiding the pups in helping them to become the best hunting dogs they can be...by doing the right things at the right times and minimizing or eliminating mistakes that can become major setbacks...



I only see 1 issue with your process. The majority of the time the "best" or "nicest" pup at 5-7 months won't always be the best dog of the litter. I have seen it first hand. A buddy had a nice litter, he kept 3 or 4 out of. Out of the whole litter the 1 pup didn't hardly do anything until she was 13 months old. But by 16 months she was extremely talented. She won the freshmen Superstakes at 16 months. And when I mean she wouldn't do hardly anything, she'd go timber cruising but that was it. He was about to give up on her when everything finally clicked. It was pretty amazing to see a young dog go from a zero to a hero in 3 or 4 months of hard hunting though.

And I've seen the best in a litter be the best of the pups. I don't make any decisions until 14-15 months old on who I keep or cull. And Jewels was and is the reason for that.

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PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

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GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
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Old Post 11-06-2019 12:56 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 841

Novicane65... of course you are right in it can happen as you said...
But I look at averages...while it can happen as you said and chances are the chance of that happening is in the low percentages and the chances of picking the best pups at the younger ages will usually go on to be good dogs...when a pup finds more treats in the yard on a consistent basis he will usually be a very good find dog one day...the 12 week old pup that is trailing in front of the other pups will usually lead the pack on the track when grown...

Many people will say things as you did and it is true...but I really donít care about the one hit wonder...I want to stick with proven consistency...I feel that having late starters in
a breeding program will lower our percentages of producing high quality early starters...

Another thing people have said...early starters burn out and quit hunting...just because it happens now and then does not mean I will pick a pup that starts late over an early starter...I will never pick a late starter over an early starter...if I were to pick a pup that comes from late starters then I wonít know if he will ever start...and if he does and I decide to breed him or her then I will be producing pups that have a higher probability of producing the same...
Who wouldnít want an early starter...they are exciting to have in the woods and to watch them do their thing...

The other day I saw an add...it said, selling a 4 month old pup cheap...she makes every step with my grown dog but is getting very trashy...Mt Cur x hound cross...selling because she is trashy...

I was thinking that is exactly the kind of pup that excites me...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Nathan Phenix
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Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 354

The age a dog will start depends a lot on breed and bloodlines. As much as handling in my opinion 50/50. I think you take 6 month old dog start hunting it. The dog will learn lead load haul and possible track and tree some. You take same dog start it at 12 months old and by time its 15 or 16 months old you couldnt tell differance in which you started early. I use try start them young now I just try get them exposed to creeks cattle fence the dark.

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Old Post 11-06-2019 02:21 AM
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Nathan Phenix
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 354

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
No matter how much we read and post and theorize, coonhunting is a bottom line business. If you do your part and put the dog in a decent set of woods it either trees coons or it doesn't. Of course there are going to be bad nights and bad woods and circumstances, but on a regular basis they just flat out need to get it done.

Over the years I have been literally AMAZED at the difference in my perception of the coon population in my area based on what I had on the end of my leash. At times I wondered if they were near extinct and at times I wondered how so many could survive.

The absolute hardest part of coonhunting is finding a good prospect to mess with. Every "try" takes a year and those years add up quickly. The best advice anyone can give is AS SOON AS you see a quality in a pup that you don't like, move on, its expensive, its hard, and its hugely time consuming, but it just is what it is.

If you want to just go coonhunting, skip the pups, save the $1500 it would take you to buy and raise 1 a year for 3 years and find yourself a nice $5000 dog to go hunting with.



This is true

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Nathan Phenix
417-255-5697

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Old Post 11-06-2019 02:22 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 841

quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
The age a dog will start depends a lot on breed and bloodlines. As much as handling in my opinion 50/50. I think you take 6 month old dog start hunting it. The dog will learn lead load haul and possible track and tree some. You take same dog start it at 12 months old and by time its 15 or 16 months old you couldnt tell differance in which you started early. I use try start them young now I just try get them exposed to creeks cattle fence the dark.


I agree...the biggest thing about starting pups too early that I donít like is when they start falling behind they get to barking every breath and that is the main reason I hold them back to a little later...

Yes different bloodlines and strains within any breed can start at different ages as you mentioned...

I like keeping more than one pup so I can mock hunt them together and then take them out alone once in a while...

Also you are right about start one young or start one at a year old and you wonít tell the difference at 14-16 months of age...while that is true I also believe in Epigenetics and teaching pup many positive things at a young age can only make them better...teach them to like the desired game at an early age...break them to gunfire at ten weeks and at 6 months break them off of deer etc...all this is easily done with the right pups...but it has to be done right for it to be easy...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 11-06-2019 09:03 AM
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Ron Ashbaugh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4723

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
For me the most satisfying is creating my own line of dogs and then breeding to the very best that is related...then test the pups and keep four of the best pups at ten weeks and continue testing and working the pups and cull at one of the four at 6 months and then another at 8 or 9 months and then hang on to the last two and now I have a pair of super nice pups...and it just doesnít get any better than that when we hunt what we raise...and it can only get better on the next generation and then the next...

There are three things that I think are or most importance...

1. Selecting the best dogs to breed

2. Selecting the best pups

3. Training and guiding the pups in helping them to become the best hunting dogs they can be...by doing the right things at the right times and minimizing or eliminating mistakes that can become major setbacks...



I am sure this is a great and satisfying process, but to even a committed coon hunter this is just completely overwhelming and unrealistic. Most aren't starting with even one breeding worthy dog, or the knowledge to know what that is. Time, money, space, and even desire to raise 4 puppies at a time is a huge commitment for even the most experienced houndsman.

I have been at this on a hobby level for about 15-20 years and I will never have 2 pups the same age again in my life. I am just not cut out for that headache. Trust me all starting out coonhunters, pay the money, get a nice dog to hunt, and if your still into it in 5 years give a pup a shot. Coonhunting doesn't fit in a lot of today's lifestyle and hunting ground gets eaten up daily, don't waste your window of interest with junk dogs or pups that never make you happy.

Better yet, find someone to go with and hunt with their dogs. Lol....it's way easier and cheaper!

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

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Old Post 11-06-2019 11:39 AM
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Ghost14
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location:
Posts: 140

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
I am sure this is a great and satisfying process, but to even a committed coon hunter this is just completely overwhelming and unrealistic. Most aren't starting with even one breeding worthy dog, or the knowledge to know what that is. Time, money, space, and even desire to raise 4 puppies at a time is a huge commitment for even the most experienced houndsman.

I have been at this on a hobby level for about 15-20 years and I will never have 2 pups the same age again in my life. I am just not cut out for that headache. Trust me all starting out coonhunters, pay the money, get a nice dog to hunt, and if your still into it in 5 years give a pup a shot. Coonhunting doesn't fit in a lot of today's lifestyle and hunting ground gets eaten up daily, don't waste your window of interest with junk dogs or pups that never make you happy.

Better yet, find someone to go with and hunt with their dogs. Lol....it's way easier and cheaper!



Truer words were never spoken.
Epigenetics isnít even close to what youíve been talking about for the past 15 years Reuben. If it were, you would have your ďlineĒ that you supposedly had years ago still intact. Or you would have a good line already again.
The problem with dogs of today, are people feeding hides and meat to pups and all these high end training ďexpertsĒ and not enough hunting and culling. 25 years ago good dogs caught game without my training or help, the culls never were worth a dang. Tonight, good dogs will catch game and the culls will ďneed more or better trainingĒ. Iíve seen 100ís if not a thousand dogs and not one that was trained to be a better game catching dog. Seen a lot with better handling and high numbers of voice commands but not one ever trained or imprinted into a good game catcher. Dogs are no different than any other living thing, they are born what they are genetically, their environment will effect their development to some degree but most will be what they are by nature. You can fight it all you want, but I donít consider a dog thatís 60% accurate a success on the trainers part. I donít consider it a success when you have dogs racehorse through the country like chickens with their heads cut off running trash and then falling off treed on a coon cause their owners arenít honest enough or smart enough to know the difference. Nature can not and will not be tamed, you better find a dog that wants to tree game and does it naturally without any gimmicks or training needed. And no, I donít agree that the pup that finds food scraps first at 6 weeks old will lead the way at 6 months. That is scientific proof of more Internet forum hunting than actual hunting experience. More times than not, pups will flip flop at different times as they develop. Just like some will grow out better on different nutrition or develop mentally due to each persons ability to stimulate their minds. Itís a real simple process but us humans have to over complicate everything. Hunt pups that have the desire and catch game. Cull the junk that needs expert training. Stop trading dogs around and start being responsible for your own yard and what comes out of it. Iíve sold 3 trained dogs in my life that I considered good enough to have my name attached to them but not what I really considered exceptional. They are now legends in the areas I sold them to and men call weekly wanting more. That tells me most people have never seen good dogs and most people think they are mass produced and easily had. If I sold those 3 for time and material nobody on earth could afford them. You cull through to a good prospect and you both work yourselves to the bone and the product will be pretty reliable. But it wonít come cheap or easy and there are no shortcuts.

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 841

Ghost14...
Epigenetics is very real...as I have said before it is nothing and has been around since beginning of time...the only difference is that now scientists are starting to study and learn about how things work in many different fields...matter of fact scientists from all over the world are performing research...the research isnít about or for dogs but we can apply using our common sense and how it applies to mammals in general...

Epigenetics will not make a cull great but it will improve it but it is still a cull...it will take a pup with great potential and make it go to a higher level of potential...great dog men already practice this through proper exposure to pup in its environment but but it isnít called epigenetics but it is a form of it...

I do have good dogs but you are right...they are not at the level of my old line of dogs...my old line reproduced a high percentage of top performers that hunted and worked how I liked...
The dogs I have now I canít say they are top reproducers or that they reproducer a high percentage of top performers for several reasons...the biggest thing is many of the dogs I have bought have been culls...luckily I have met someone who does have good dogs and we are working together in producing better dogs...

Another thing is I do not get to hunt as I did in years past or work my pups as I did once upon a time...

On testing pups I havenít been wrong in picking excellent pups and yes they tend to be the better dogs when grown...if you donít test your pups like most breeders then you really canít say for sure that it doesnít work...

I also agree that most folks donít cull enough and that is a major problem I see...I have bought dogs for a good price and have culled them and just move on...

The bottom line for me has been the same for many years...if I want good dogs I need to breed my own...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 11-07-2019 02:00 AM
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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1267

Re: Singling out a young dog

quote:
Originally posted by BradD20
I have a 1.5 year old male out of a litter of mine. I didnít own him up until he was around a year old. When he was young he would run and tree with the older dogs. Then he got laid up for a couple months before i got him back. Now with my older dogs he will get in there and take 1st and 1st almost every time. Will run the track like he wants to be in front. I cut him alone and he will hunt real slow usually not ranging out more than 300-400 unless he hits a track. Also, he tends to be a little junky when heís alone but he hasnít had much correction on this yet. He will run and tree his own coon if he ranges out far enough to hit a track. Think he just needs to be put in the woods a bunch by himself until he starts going hunting good? Seems to me like he has a lot of potential.


the way you're describing this young hound is what is call a young inexperienced hound. If you haven't hunted him for 30 nights I'd suggest you do and keep a journal on his performance. And be honest with what you see after 30 nights. If there's not much improvement on his part then the cards aren't in his favor but I'd say he just lacks the confidence to go tree a coon alone.

__________________
Eric DePue

PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

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