UKC Forums UKC Front Page :: Field Operations :: Show Operations :: Registration :: UKC Store
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Registration is free! Calendar Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Home  
UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Hybrid Vigor
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 821

Hybrid Vigor

I do not know all the variations that define hybrid vigor...
but one way is to cross a hound of one breed with a hound from another breed...I think there are just as many theories as there are facts about what the true meaning of Hybrid Vigor is...

I have known of Hybrid Vigor but now with the ďjunky houndĒ topic I have looked around for more information on the subject on account information is just finger tips away ...still this subject just goes right over my head...

So this is what I understand and it does not mean it is 100 percent accurate but I do agree with it...especially when dealing with dogs that are all to closely related and dealing with breed depression or as the old timers called it Tired Blood...

(Hybrid Vigor) When making a cross the pups will usually be larger, stronger, faster and smarter according to what I read...but I will have to say right here...if we crossed a nice redtick with a nice walker then I probably will agree with what was said... I would say 8 out of 8 pups from this cross will have the potential to be great dogs...
What if I decided to breed a beagle or worse a weenie dog to that walker instead of the redtick, what would I get as offspring...if Iím lucky I might get 1 pup out of 8 that might make a competition dog and logically I know notorious even try it...but the redtick and walker crossed puppies all have the potential to be top competition dogs...
The only sure thing in common with all scenarios is that the pups should all have improved immune systems and stronger fertility systems...

I think there are pros and cons to this topic so hopefully many will offer opinions for either or both sides...

If we have 90 purebred dogs in a competition hunt and ten cross bred hounds for a total of 100 hounds competing and the top 5 winners were 3 purebreds and 2 crossbreeds...which dogs did better, the purebreds or the crossbreeds?

I think there will be folks who will say whichever won first place between the crossbreeds and purebreds did better and others will look at the percentages and go by percentages...

In my mind percentages tells the truth...the more the data the better the accuracy...

And in my opinion we need to interpret the whys as to why it happens consistently or at the very least developing theories along the way so that we can become better dog men and dog women...interpreting information and developing theories is the fun part...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 11:35 AM
Reuben is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Reuben Click here to Send Reuben a Private Message Click Here to Email Reuben Find more posts by Reuben Add Reuben to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 821

Something to think about with percentages when dealing with pups...

with the purebreds...what percentages of pups make hunting dogs?

With the crossbred...what percentages of pups make hunting dog?

As mentioned in the previous post about the crossbreeds, it has a lot to do with which hounds get crossed even more so than with the purebreds...it can be challenging enough with purebreds...

So if someone breeds a redtick with a walker on the first cross, raised and bred one of those pup to a black & tan and then one of those pups to a Plott and just switching back and forth...I donít think I would want for a pup from that type of breeding program...

But if a breeder had a well known line of walkers and he bred one of his females to a well known line of redtick hounds and he took and breeds one of those pups back to his walker line I would buy a 3/4 walker and if it turns out right bred that 3/4 walker back to a pure walker that is related...this route I can take...

Just putting scenarios out there as to what can and probably will happen...

I think this is doable but we must keep and maintain our pure breeds...I believe it is super important to do so...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 12:22 PM
Reuben is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Reuben Click here to Send Reuben a Private Message Click Here to Email Reuben Find more posts by Reuben Add Reuben to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1206

You've been doing your homework. In purebred, tight bred families that start showing what you refer to as tired blood an outcross will give you hybrid vigor and is referred to as an f-1 hybrid. To maintain this hybrid vigor take the f1 hybrid that matches your breed the most in genotype and phenotype and breed back to your side, In some breeds 7/8 is considered pure and some breeds it's 15/16.
When you start breeding hybrid to hybrid you start losing uniformity in genotype and phenotype. Thats why years ago we were lucky to get two good pups from a litter. Now good breeders have locked in traits and it's obvious that it can be overdone but it's not unusal to see whole litters that run and tree.
Hope this explains why the f1 hybrid is most likely of the xbreeds to be outstanding and it's possible to get an outstanding dog from a hybrid to hybrid mating but it's also possible for a blind hog to find an acorn too.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 12:49 PM
yadkinriver is offline Click Here to See the Profile for yadkinriver Click here to Send yadkinriver a Private Message Click Here to Email yadkinriver Visit yadkinriver's homepage! Find more posts by yadkinriver Add yadkinriver to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17533

Can you not get hybrid vigor by outcrossing a linebed hound to an unrelated hound of the same breed?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 02:22 PM
Richard Lambert is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Lambert Click here to Send Richard Lambert a Private Message Click Here to Email Richard Lambert Find more posts by Richard Lambert Add Richard Lambert to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Al Medcalf
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Barnesville, Ga.
Posts: 358

In the Cur world, I've heard for a while that you can get good results from crossing Kemmer dogs with OMCBA Streak bred dogs. Both are very tight bred dogs. I never tried it because I'm not a fan of Streak dogs. A few months ago, I was given a pup bred like this because he was a chicken killer. I've started working him some and I'm impressed. I'll be surprised if he doesn't make a good dog.

I've raised a few litters of Plott X Cur crosses and have had pretty good luck with them. If they don't make coondogs, I give them to hog hunters and they do well for them.

__________________
If It Climbs, It Ain't Trash

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 03:46 PM
Al Medcalf is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Al Medcalf Click here to Send Al Medcalf a Private Message Click Here to Email Al Medcalf Find more posts by Al Medcalf Add Al Medcalf to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 821

Al
I used to cross kemmer with Texas Smoke and was extremely satisfied but I do not like pure kemmer they are too inbred...I like kemmer with Plott...I have two right now and next set of pups will be kemmer and Plott or 3/4 Plott with 1/4 kemmer...

I donít like streak dogs because of their size...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 03:53 PM
Reuben is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Reuben Click here to Send Reuben a Private Message Click Here to Email Reuben Find more posts by Reuben Add Reuben to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1206

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard Lambert
[B]Can you not get hybrid vigor by outcrossing a linebed hound to an unrelated hound of the same breed?


You sure can!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 04:39 PM
yadkinriver is offline Click Here to See the Profile for yadkinriver Click here to Send yadkinriver a Private Message Click Here to Email yadkinriver Visit yadkinriver's homepage! Find more posts by yadkinriver Add yadkinriver to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1206

Richard

I bred for coondogs since my early teens but I actually bred coondogs for around 35 years. During that time I watched all the outcrosses on my dogs and determined that certain strains crossed better than others. Three lines of dogs nicked with mine way more often. Bozo, Flag and Finley River. When new blood was needed a dog from one of these outcrosses bred back into my dogs renewed them best.
Not many people breed tight strains anymore. Seems they had rather breed for titles. So until they spend the majority of their life breeding a strain and trying to maintain it It's difficult making them understand all thats involved.
Everything I've posted is to hopefully help anyone interested. I'm not looking for arguments but I'm happy with discussions. Hunt with whatever you are happy with whether pure, crossbred or a bulldog.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 04:58 PM
yadkinriver is offline Click Here to See the Profile for yadkinriver Click here to Send yadkinriver a Private Message Click Here to Email yadkinriver Visit yadkinriver's homepage! Find more posts by yadkinriver Add yadkinriver to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 821

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
You've been doing your homework. In purebred, tight bred families that start showing what you refer to as tired blood an outcross will give you hybrid vigor and is referred to as an f-1 hybrid. To maintain this hybrid vigor take the f1 hybrid that matches your breed the most in genotype and phenotype and breed back to your side, In some breeds 7/8 is considered pure and some breeds it's 15/16.
When you start breeding hybrid to hybrid you start losing uniformity in genotype and phenotype. Thats why years ago we were lucky to get two good pups from a litter. Now good breeders have locked in traits and it's obvious that it can be overdone but it's not unusal to see whole litters that run and tree.
Hope this explains why the f1 hybrid is most likely of the xbreeds to be outstanding and it's possible to get an outstanding dog from a hybrid to hybrid mating but it's also possible for a blind hog to find an acorn too.



Excellent post Yadkinriver... I was wanting to start a thread to talk about the pros and cons on crossbreeding dogs...IMO there has to be a legit and sound plan and reasoning for breeding this way...

As a little kid all my hunting dogs were mutts and they all hunted because a half to whole rabbit was their main food supply...no hunt and no eat...we didnít have many scraps because there were nine kids in my family...took a lot of hands to run a farm...

So I didnít worm nor vaccinate pups or dogs...never been to the Vet during those times...I grew up and bought a purebred registered pup and right at 4 months of age he got really sick so I finally took him to the vet...first time ever to see the vet and first time ever with a purebred... well the vet asked if I had given the puppy shots and I said no...long story short the pup caught distemper and died...the vet said there was nothing he could do...it was too late and at the very least if he lived he wouldnít be 100 percent...research back then wasnít easy, no forums nor computers...info came slow...but researching told me that purebred dogs do not have a diversified gene pool as would a mutt, that is why they look alike when bred...the less diversified the more the dogs look like a breed or strain...diversification in crossbreeds equals better health and agrees with what has been said about Hybrid Vigor...

But I say this so I can speak of other personal theories...

The coyote and diversification...I will continue once I have more time...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 05:33 PM
Reuben is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Reuben Click here to Send Reuben a Private Message Click Here to Email Reuben Find more posts by Reuben Add Reuben to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9432

Any breeder that has raised several generations of his own dogs can see not saying he is not putting coon treeing dogs on the ground but they get to a point that they are all about the same in ability and traits. Thatís when you go outside your line. But make sure the dog you go to not only has the traits your striving for make sure he reproduces those traits also.


Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 10:32 PM
yadkintar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for yadkintar Click here to Send yadkintar a Private Message Click Here to Email yadkintar Find more posts by yadkintar Add yadkintar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 821

We as breeders of purebred dogs will vaccinate and worm dogs and pups otherwise they will more than likely die...we also feed them well for maximizing puppy health and making sure the pups will grow to become healthy and strong dogs...and these dogs will probably be bred to get more of the same...



We really donít know how much breeding depression is going on with wildlife...we can use the coyote as an example for theoretical purposes...

We do know that coyotes in their areas all tend to look alike...so it seems there should be some breeding depression going on at times in their areas...so why is it that they appear to be healthy? Probably, what is really happening behind the scenes is the reason why it appears this way...
Mother Nature culls as needed on the coyote pups...and we tend to try to save all pups and then we breed more of the same...

Mother Nature does not try to save the pups...the ones that survive worms or diseases will grow up and produce more of the same...in more difficult years Mother Nature culls harder and the coyote pups grow up to breed more of the same more often than not...

So if we used Mother Natures way of culling would it be possible to prolong the times before breeding depression can occur? It is something to think about...just maybe Mother Nature is also culling the very thing that causes breeding depression and we havenít identified that technique at this time...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-21-2019 11:03 PM
Reuben is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Reuben Click here to Send Reuben a Private Message Click Here to Email Reuben Find more posts by Reuben Add Reuben to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
thomasg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1036

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard Lambert
[B]Can you not get hybrid vigor by outcrossing a linebed hound to an unrelated hound of the same breed?


You sure can!

but most have to big of ego to give it a try .lol

Last edited by thomasg on 09-22-2019 at 03:29 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-22-2019 02:14 AM
thomasg is offline Click Here to See the Profile for thomasg Click here to Send thomasg a Private Message Click Here to Email thomasg Find more posts by thomasg Add thomasg to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 06:40 AM. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread


Forum Jump:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
< Contact Us - The United Kennel Club >

Copyright 2003-2017, United Kennel Club
Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.3.0
(vBulletin courtesy Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.)