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How do you place it
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1st, 2nd, 3rd 4th 4 3.67%
1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th 8 7.34%
1st, 4th, 4th, 4th 69 63.30%
1st and no other placements 28 25.69%
Total: 109 votes 100%
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Todd M / UKC
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: The Great State of Michigan
Posts: 2487

Rule Question, Poll

Four dog Winners Pack

In this four dog Winners Pack everything is going fine. That is until 20 minutes into the hunt two dogs come in and sit down. The judge starts the clock on them and 5 minutes later they are scratched for not hunting. Now we are down to two dogs. 20 minutes later, one of the remaining dogs comes in and sits down. He is scratched 5 minutes later. This leaves one dog. The dog completes the winners pack and is not scratched and wins the cast.

Question is, how do you place this winners pack?

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Last edited by Todd M / UKC on 02-29-2008 at 01:27 PM

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Steve Shipman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2007
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I'll take a shot. I take it your meaning HB format. 3 dogs that where scratched for not hunting would all receive a 4th place finish. The cast winner would have the first.

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Albert Fulton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: East OH
Posts: 909

3 way tie for 4th. In either format I believe.

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STYLISH KENNELS
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: WV
Posts: 318

I'M GONNA SAY 1ST PLACE ONLY AND NO OTHER PLACES.
DOG MUST COMPLETE THE CAST TO EARN PLACEMENT.
NOT REAL CAUGHT UP ON THE RULES YET BUT THIS SOUNDS LOGICAL.

INTERESTED IN HEARING THE ANSWER.

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GETRDONE KENNEL
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1st, 4th, 4th, 4th

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wvbill
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Registered: Dec 2004
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Would it change the placements if the next to last dog would of took off game?

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LARRY DEAN
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I believe it would be 1st then 3 way tie for 4th. But I think, that this rule should be revised. I believe if a dog is scratched, for what ever reason in the final, regardless of the amount of dogs, or what the offense, they should recieve no benefit for this. We don't let dogs enter the show if they've been scratched, except with 50 championship points or more. This does happen from time to time.

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beagles22
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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: ohio
Posts: 82

I would say 1st and no others place... You guys are suposed to be for the total dog... A total dog will not quit hunting and if it does then how can it be the total dog... If a dog can't run four at least 4 hours then in my opinion it is either not in shape or not a very good dog. Again this is my opinion..

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wvbill
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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: wv
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Taken out of the Total Dog section.

Looks like once it completes the first two hours it is in the clear.

"To be eligible for Total Dog points the dog must have been entered in and completed the full 120 minutes cast time or the designated first round cast time in an Elimination event in the hunt portion of the UKC Licensed Hunting Beagle event the day of the show or be scratched by the Judge. Dogs withdrawn by handler or scratched in accordance with rule 6 (b) or any action deemed to be an intentional scratch are not eligible for Total Dog Points."

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xdawgbeagles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

re:

I know how to now...

1st
4th
4th
4th

The only thing i can find that covers this is on page 69 (new book)

Elimination Format Ė Rules For Placing Dogs In All Divisions
Only plus point cast winners from the first round are eligible for placement in any division. No placements may be awarded until the final cast has been assembled. Hounds in the final cast will be placed according to highest total score in the final cast even if the points are minus. If a tie results because of hounds scratching in the semi final cast, revert to previous roundís score to determine placement. ***Any dogs scratched from a cast will receive the lowest position available in that cast.***

I'm not arguing with this rule, who would???

Just wondering if any of you could point me towards more information... So that i might learn/understand the rule completely.

Thanks,
Jack

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STYLISH KENNELS
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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: WV
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RULE 13c .....SAYS THAT IF A DOGS IS WITHDRAWN OR INTENTIONALY SCRATCHED THEY WILL NOT RECIEVE CHAMPIONSHIP POINTS. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! AND NO DOGS CAN MOVE UP IN PLACE THAT WAS NOT IN THE WINNERS PACK.

SO I SAY 1ST PLACE ONLY.

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Ark. beagles
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Registered: Dec 2007
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I had this happen to me last year. It was 90 degrees, we ran one rabbit and the dogs was done. WE ALL GOT SCRATCHED,and we all got 4th.

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lolz
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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Chambersburg, PA
Posts: 95

quote:
Originally posted by STYLISH KENNELS
RULE 13c .....SAYS THAT IF A DOGS IS WITHDRAWN OR INTENTIONALY SCRATCHED THEY WILL NOT RECIEVE CHAMPIONSHIP POINTS. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! AND NO DOGS CAN MOVE UP IN PLACE THAT WAS NOT IN THE WINNERS PACK.

SO I SAY 1ST PLACE ONLY.



None of the dogs in question were withdrawn or intentionaly scratched.

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S Fluhart
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Registered: Jul 2003
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WOW, I hope some of you NEVER take a Master of Hounds job.

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STYLISH KENNELS
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: WV
Posts: 318

I DONT KNOW WHAT THR RIGHT ANSWER IS.
I'M NEW IN THE BEAGLE TRIALS, BUT I JUST READ IT AS I WROTE IT.
MAYBE NOT THE RIGHT PLACE IN THE RULE BOOK.

I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW THE RIGHT ANSWER.

DO YOU KNOW FLUHART, YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND THIS GAME FOR A WHILE?

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BJW 002
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Registered: Feb 2008
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1st
4th
4th
4th

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RAMBLING
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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Missouri
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1ST, 4TH, 4TH, 4TH
If this is not right somebody made some serouis mistakes in the past.

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xdawgbeagles
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

Scott?

quote:
Originally posted by S Fluhart
WOW, I hope some of you NEVER take a Master of Hounds job.


1st
4th
4th
4th

not right???

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LARRY DEAN
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Buckeye State
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Hey, Todd,
was this post for educational purposes?
I believe you know the answer.
It should be the lowest possible positions
1st 4th 4th 4th.
Has this been a problem lately.
Explain this. When dogs get scratched in a cast. Why or why not are they allowed in the show: example
Dog A gets scratched for not hunting: Can't enter show unless he has at least 50 championship points.
Dog B gets scratched for running off game: Dog B is allowed to enter show.
Why is there a difference in the offenses?

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Old Post 03-02-2008 01:03 PM
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xdawgbeagles
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

Jeremy

I'm sure the purpose was to find out who knew the correct answer and to inform the rest of the right way to place hounds. There were some people down this way who didn't know the correct answer. (Me included) But we do now.... I agree with your question about being scratched for different reasons and the way UKC views it (in relation to the show).

Do you know where i can find the rule for the way to place these hounds in the rule book... I think is important for all (including myself) to have the best understanding of the rule...

Thanks,
Jack

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thornie
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Registered: Jun 2003
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You revert back to previous scores.

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xdawgbeagles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

1st
4th
4th
4th

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LARRY DEAN
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I talked this situation over with Denny Dugan today at a hunt.
He said regardless of how many dogs are in a cast, when they are scratched they get (all) the lowest possible position. Also for all of those that believe that they should recieve no points, this is why they do. When a dog makes it to the final pack, they obviously achieved this by making it past the first round so they are all guaranteed atleast 4th place. Example dog a, b, and c, all get scratched, why should they get not championship points, when the 5th place dog does. What happens in the final pack is after the fact. Its a bonus round to place the top four. I know we all don't like to see this happen, but it does. Also if there is a two dog final, and one gets scratched, the scratched dog gets 4th place even though there was only two dogs competing, the lowest possible position is rewarded. Maybe Todd could put a different situation or question like this on the boards once a week to help all of us learn and understand the rules better. I think this was a good thing. We all learned something.

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Calvin Robyn Mings
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 305

I believe it would be 1st 4th 4th 4th places.

If you have 3 cast and only one cast comes back in with plus points than that dog doesn't come have to go back out he automatically gets a 1st placement without having to go back out to hunt for 1 hour how do we know that dog wouldn't get scratched for off game or for not hunting in that one hour. Is that fair.
I think if you have a 2 dog final cast than the dog that got scratched. it wouldn't be fair to give them 4th place when all you have was 2 dogs and there would be a 1st and 2nd placements. wouldn't that dog get a 2nd placement and the dog that doesn't have to run in winners pack because there is only one dog that comes in with cast win that was going out gets 1st.
I may be wrong but that is how I see it never had the problem with only a 2 dog winners pack i am just asking a question.

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LARRY DEAN
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I see some of these different points, and yes this does happen.
At the last few small club hunts in Ohio, last week, they had only 2 dog finals, and one had been scratched, and this question came up. I don't know all of the details on why or why not, but this is what I was told, and it was explained in pretty good detail.

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