Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

I put in a proposal to expand or reword as It may be to change the way calls are allowed to be questioned.
27 voted against the expansion or rewording of the time allowed.
Playing devils advocate or Philadelphia lawyer. It is all in the wording of the rules.
I am going to write something that will cause a lot of discussion and disagreement .
I have proof of what I will write about the questioning of calls. Argue I am wrong and I will prove I am right to all. So to you 27 naysayers . It is already with in the unwritten/written rules to question a call and there does not even have to be a question on the card. Impossible you say? Not according to the Advisor.
Anyone of you that have been beaten by a bad call remember what I am about to write here because it has all been discussed and officially interpreted .
I am tired of seeing people win or lose on technicalities because of scoring errors as I wrote about in my pleading to help possibly fix or ease a problem.
I want everyone that reads this to rethink their rights in those bad scoring situations and in questioning those calls.
I know a lot of MOH are going to argue at hunts against it so copy anything I may reprint to bolster your argument.
Maybe me bringing this to light will help .

Remember it has been drummed into our heads all calls must be questioned at the time of the scoring at the tree.
I am going to tell you and prove this is not completely true in all situations..

Okay here it is ………………………….

First lets examine rule 16 .1.
Hunting judge has complete authority and will be responsible for all scoring situations
True and false.... There are absolutely a few situations they do not have complete authority.
That is in the scoring of trees, time outs, previously scored trees. These situations REQUIRE A CAST VOTE. More on this later. His vote carries no more weight then any other cast member even in tie votes .
rule 16.b. Ahh the reknown...… Situations not questioned and notated judges decision is made will not be considered....."JUDGES DECISION"
Here in the wording . So this would pertain to situations like a dog being off a tree, scratched for fighting , keeping time on trees, etc. A judges decision has absolutely no additional authority when it comes to time outs, previous scored trees, plus ,minus trees. THIS IS A CAST VOTE. Again more on this later.

Rule 13 ..a............Scorecards….
No changes can be made later except where a question arises and is noted in the woods.
True and false .
As the advisor has indeed written...

Licensed MOH/Hunt Directors have the authority to correct erroneous point values on scorecards whether they were questioned or not !!!

So in the scenarios I wrote about in my other post all one need do is tell the authority in charge about it and it is their duty as an official to correct those point values.
Like the obvious split tree not recorded as a split . A man failing to assign minus when calling another mans dog and does not minus those points, failing to award next available tree ,etc., awarding 100 strike while other dogs are all on a lead hope you all get the point here.

Rule 13..b..Handlers signatures verifies hunting time and scores are correct. ANY PROTEST RELATIVE TO TIME OR SCORES SHOULD BE NOTED WITH A QUESTION MARK.

Read that again … this is the end of the hunt. You are signing the scorecard. You know this guy failed to give his dog obvious split tree points to keep from taking minus. You know this guy should have got the next available tree points and minus on that slick. You know that guy should of only got 25 strike and not 100.
They are in fact falsely signing their score is correct. Falsifying ?? Maybe in a sense when they know their score is incorrect . Hard sell but it is a point to make them fix it.
But the big point here is re-read that last sentence again.

ANY PROTEST RELATIVE TO TIME OR SCORES SHOULD BE NOTED WITH A QUESTION MARK.
End of the hunt and It sounds like you can still get a question put on that card per the rules.
Advisor states … A scorecard may be signed "still with the right of protest".
I would suggest sign the scorecard and write under scoring protest and tell the judge you want a question beside the score you are protesting.

The Advisor has already gone on record to state another competitor even has 30 minutes after hunt deadline to file a formal complaint if they realize there has been a mistake made.

I will caution that these are questionable situations that
are directly related to actual scoring incorrectly and not when pertaining to "JUDGES DECISIONS OR CAST VOTES"
that you may disagree with.

To recap...
Judges do not make decisions when it comes to recording scores. The rules already tell the judges what those point values are supposed to be. So by rule 16 ..b specifically says JUDGES DECISION." questions .
Protests to wrongly entered scores can be questioned at the end of the hunt per rule 13...b.
You still have 30 minutes after deadline to question a incorrect scoring situation .

One more thing that aggravates me.
The judge that writes down a scored tree the way he sees it .AND FAILS TO TAKE A CAST VOTE!!!
This too has been addressed by the Advisor.
So you all leave the tree get back to the trucks(remember I wanted the question time officially extended to any time prior to recasting).
You ask the judge so just how did he score that last tree. You find he circled it when three of you felt it should have been minus. Course he had first tree and did not want that 125-.LOL.
Remember this is a situation requiring a cast vote. The judge should have took a vote instead of quietly circling the tree. POINT VALUES ARE NOT A JUDGES DECISION!!!
A JUDGE CAN NOT MAKE A COMPLETE DECISION ON HOW A TREE IS SCORED!!!
So the Advisor would not commit to an answer only to say THERE IS NO CORRECT ANSWER TO THIS SCENARIO.
But I would be hard put as a cast member to allow an individual to leave a score stand that was not voted .

BLAST AWAY

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 07-25-2019 at 06:44 AM

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 09-28-2019 at 07:10 AM

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Brookville, PA
Posts: 2460

Patty, I'm not about to read all that. but I'm thinking it could be as simple as the other kc. they have a grey spot on card to sign that you don't agree with scoring

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Lone Pine North

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

I have a question on questions that I want answered by UKC officals before we head into the zones.
Do all cast members need to place a question mark on the card for a question to be heard in the event that the person that originally placed the question is scratched either in the woods or while the question is being heard. This situation has happened at the world hunt level.
Imo if the question was placed on the card at the time of the event happened that was questioned other cast members should continue to have the right to have the question heard even if the original person to speak up first is scratched or withdraws from a cast it doesn't make the question go away but I want an official ruling. If not do all who question need to make notes on the card that they also question the same call?

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Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

Pat, you will find at the top of the rules the statement, "In addition to the rules on the scorecard, the Offical UKC Coonhound Rulebook and the most recent Coonhound Advisor columns in COONHOUND BLOODLINES contain additional rules. Statements of policies and interpretations of UKC rules pertaining to the conducting of UKC events. All event activities, rules, policy applications and iterpertations are subject to the final decision by UKC in its sole judgement and discretion."
Notice it does not say the coonhound advisor you are in posession of...
In simpler terms they can change whatever whenever and your old advisors, which are no longer available for purchase last time I checked, are not as relevant as they may seem to you. Most of the time UKC goes with tradition on how certain rules have always been interpreted but sometimes a ringer is thrown in we've never heard of before. Sometimes new policy is made. Sometimes that policy is changed later, example you can now hunt a dog that has pup papers and has not been permanently registered. Even now some MOH try to turn hunters away. Sometimes rules show up that are never put in the rules but all are expected to know anyway, scoring of cages and enclosures as delete and the driving to score trees both come to mind. The reason that they don't sell old advisors and shouldn't is that they can very quickly become outdated as you have marked in yours on the needing to write the time used and signatures, rules that have changed since it was printed.
Imo the past advisors need going through and anything they want in the rules that is in there should be added. Write the actual rules in a clear and concise way that very little interpretation is ever needed. It should be nothing more than an interesting column to read on how to apply current rules as they are written, a what to do for the new comer a refresher course for the rest. There are always going to be situations that are beyond the scope any rule can cover (Tar and his cast under buffalo attack in a tree and not able to score the dogs) but that is what the appeal process is for if you do not agree with how a ruling was issued.


****!!!!
I have a question on questions that I want answered by UKC officals before we head into the zones.
Do all cast members need to place a question mark on the card for a question to be heard in the event that the person that originally placed the question is scratched either in the woods or while the question is being heard. This situation has happened at the world hunt level.
Imo if the question was placed on the card at the time of the event happened that was questioned other cast members should continue to have the right to have the question heard even if the original person to speak up first is scratched or withdraws from a cast, it doesn't make the question go away but I want an official ruling. If not do all who question need have judge to make note on the card that they also question the same call at the original time it was questioned?

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

Does a scoring question (to be resolved with the official after the hunt) become null and void if the handler, who officially raised the question, withdraws or is scratched from the cast prior to the end of the hunt. Or, if that handler does not go back to the official, for whatever reason?

Even though the question raised may no longer make any difference to THE handler who raised the question; the "pending" ruling could still potentially have an effect on the official or correct scoring of dogs, as well as placement within the cast.

Think about it. We could come up with several good examples why it would be imperative to have the question be heard and ruled on.

For that reason, a question may still be heard and ruled on by the official. I use the word "may" so as to also suggest that the remaining cast members would not be required to have the question ruled on, if no one in the cast felt it to be necessary to do so.

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2961

'Hang on to your britches', I think these 2 'lawyer ladies', at least I think they are both females doing the typing, are ready for a long discussion on this board & have proof of what they are talking about. This could get a lot of ????'s answered about questioning a call to help people understand the process at hunts & especially how it should work at quarters & world hunt finals.

I would like to present a typical miss interpretation of a rule we had Monday night at a $kc hunt about a UKC rule. It was stated that 'did I know you would assign tree points to a dog that was treeing, but not called, when you walked into tree & coon was seen'.
ME- NO way only time tree points are assigned is for slick tree or off game.
Ron/Todd- No, it says on back of card 'tree points will be assigned & minused, if coon is seen'.

Discussion got a little heated for a couple minutes after that because I kept telling them they were wrong & there was NO FRICKIN way that was the rule on the score card. I would apologize to both now for raising my voice.
I told them to show me the rule, so Ron punched it up on his smart phone. Don't have one of those new things, but man it was nice to have it then, TO PROVE THEM WRONG.
Ron read it to me, " Dogs will be assigned tree points & be minused, when treeing but not called treed when judge arrives", they added when coon is seen, but did NOT finish reading the rule, as printed on scorecard. So this is when I told them to finish reading the rule. So they did & it said, "Assign tree points & minus for slick tree or Off game", then they understood what I was telling them. And then us 'old timers' wonder why there are so many questions about the rules, even as they are written.

If you young hunters have a question about a rules interpretation, ask someone that has been 'around the block' for 50 years, going to hunts to help you out. Hope this don't interfere with original topic of this site, but this has been bugging me for years about how people won't finish reading a rule before thinking they know how it should be used. Take care, Ron.

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Registered: Aug 2013
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Ron, Cheyenne had to use this rule when judging a cast a couple of weeks ago cast told him he was wrong. He flipped the card over and read it to them.

I would still like answer on who all needs to question a call to make sure it will be heard by MOH or panel.
It has always been assumed that the other cast members can take the question if the original questioner is scratched or withdraws as long as it was questioned at the time event questioned took place but after an instance that happened at the big dance a couple of years ago, where there is no appeal, we want clarification.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

Redneck mafia, did Allen answer your question a few answers up? It's not a requirement for it to be heard if the remaining cast members do not want to bring it back, but if any of them wish to it has to be heard.

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2961

I thought of that later about who was posting, You or Chey. It hit me the way it was posted, it was probably Chey. Will catch up with you guys this winter, when I'm hunting in Tulsa/SE Kansas area with bluetick friends. I always enjoy putting a little whoopin on walker dogs, if you don't make me walk up TOO BIG a mountain!!! 2 Warrior pups are weaned & beautiful. Take care, Ron.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Does a scoring question (to be resolved with the official after the hunt) become null and void if the handler, who officially raised the question, withdraws or is scratched from the cast prior to the end of the hunt. Or, if that handler does not go back to the official, for whatever reason?

Even though the question raised may no longer make any difference to THE handler who raised the question; the "pending" ruling could still potentially have an effect on the official or correct scoring of dogs, as well as placement within the cast.

Think about it. We could come up with several good examples why it would be imperative to have the question be heard and ruled on.

For that reason, a question may still be heard and ruled on by the official. I use the word "may" so as to also suggest that the remaining cast members would not be required to have the question ruled on, if no one in the cast felt it to be necessary to do so.

---

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

It's actually a good one to use for a topic.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

Good idea. I've never found it addressed before.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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