Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

---

Originally posted by Butterbean26
I don't think anyone realy knows about genetics. I do know that some crosses are better than others but you don't know that for sure untill the cross is made. If alot of people knew about genetics than their stud dog should never have a bad pup. Just my oppinion. I have hunted with a dog out of a brother & sister cross and she was a mental case idiot that needed to be shot.

---

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2005
Location: kokomo
Posts: 495

ive always heard your first cross will work good, its when you breed those dogs is when your bad traits would start showing up we were thinking about making a 1/2 brother 1/2 sister cross and had these same questions

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 94

cence you think you know genits have you ever had your dogs blood drawn and teasted to see wat part of the blood is inbread.yes it is dun every day in europen countrys and can be dun here as well in the states.have you ever had aney of your dogs health teasted or x rayed.that is the onley way you will know if you are doing the walker breed good instead of the walker going down hill.breeding healthey dogs will also let there pups live longer for us to enjoy longer.IF YOUR LINE OF DOGS DONT NEED IMPROVED YOU CAN HAVE THEM CLONED IN EUROP BUT IT IS AGINEST THE LAW IN THE STATES i wish it was leagal here.

__________________
roll em out boys

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2006
Location: northeast ohio
Posts: 1309

my dad did it all the time with his hide dogs and he killed ALOT of coon when i was growing up.

__________________
jake burdette
330 260 2076

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 344

quote:

---

Originally posted by plottpower
ive always heard your first cross will work good, its when you breed those dogs is when your bad traits would start showing up we were thinking about making a 1/2 brother 1/2 sister cross and had these same questions

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2008
Location: NE Wisconsin
Posts: 32

Breeding unsound hounds is the problem, not inbreeding.

Last edited by CaneToad on 12-26-2008 at 04:36 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 441

Yeah and if you have anymore questions speak to my attorney SKYWARD!!!!LOL Thanks Skyward you explained what I'm attempting to accomplish.What I guess I forgot to mention Dr. Larry Evans said the Cornell to his mother may not produce what I'm looking for and the set of genetics I have aren't going to get me where I'm wanting to go.Lets hope that doesn't happen.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2005
Location: kokomo
Posts: 495

skyward thanks for your response
right now we are going to try breeding my female this summer to her great uncle (the uncles litter was a great litter all made coondogs, 2 were grands including him) and her litter she is the only one i know of thats still alive if this doesnt work we are really thinking about the 1/2 brother 1/2 sister cross both of those are great coondogs


canetoad: thats exactly what i was thinking

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 344

pp and JH, it takes a set of cajones to breed this way and I commend both of you for it. Many breeders refuse to as they really don't want to know how weak their foundation is. Those that do, realize a treasure-trove if they are observant and are light years ahead of their peers. The rest just latch onto a single specimen and ride it for all its worth. When that specimen dies, their fame dies with it. Consistently producing these specimens should be your ultimate goal. Dr. Evans is leading you down the right path. You will get the good and the bad. Work off percentages and be realistic in your goals. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water if Cornell to his mother doesn't work. I know what Dr. Evans was implying when he said that it may not give you what you want, or incapable of it. Sometimes you have to do a breeding to set yourself up for the next one. As you progress in your program, your culls will eventually be above the competitions best. I apologize for using you as an example but you were along for the ride on the thread.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 441

No reason for the apology Skyward.My teacher's used me to set the example many times!!!!!LOL

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

Talk is cheap. Where are these genetic wonders that are head and shoulders above the rest?
Im glad someone is working on building a better mousetrap, but Ive been listning to it for decades and if anything we are catching fewer mice today then we did 30 yrs ago.

Makes for interesting discussion though. Yall keep thinking youve got it figured out and I will keep waiting to see the results.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2008
Location:
Posts: 3550

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skyward
Truly breeding your dogs for improved performance and overall health is a crash course in the science of "sweet pain". The vast majority of breeders that I have seen in hounds are simply content to keep their efforts average at best. Maybe because they don't want people to remember the bad and not the good, who knows? The very few who do aspire to improve the breed will/should utilize all three forms of breeding, inbreeding, line breeding, and outcrossing. There is no established repetitive selection that will work. Generally linebreeding should make up the bulk of a breeding program. When that one individual comes along that is 3 standard deviations above the mean for that breed, inbreeding is a way to provide a clue as to who and where those superior genes are coming from. Enter Mr. Horner and Cornell. By breeding Cornell back to his mother, Mr. Horner can then categorize the strengths and weaknesses of the gene pool and make future decisions for future breedings. Without doing breedings like this, Mr. Horner could only rely on speculation. The more observant and ruthless Mr. Horner is in his evaluation and level of standards, the greater this type of breeding will benefit him and his kennel. By developing a program based on linebreeding and selective inbreeding, Mr. Horner's percentages will establish themselves over the course of multiple generations and not just a single breeding. Then he will truly know what he has and he can begin to look for an outcross. In this way, Mr. Horner will develop above average producers as their gene pool won't be as scatterbred as the 8 billion other Gr. Nt.s running around. He will have a Gr. Nt. that may perform as the rest, but due to his breeding practices, his will stand above the others as his will be consistent in what they produce due to the reduced potential of genetic manifestations in the offspring. I am currently looking for a few pups for my own personal use and it has been extremely difficult in finding breeders who truly know what they are doing. I look for two things in a breeder, 1. Do they have a program based on linebreeding? 2. Do they cull? If a breeder does these two things, I will dig a little deeper. What happens unfortunately, instead of culling, they hang a nice little sales pitch on the dog and pass it off to someone else for a few bucks. Its a shame to see "fanciers" sell out their chosen breed for a couple hundred bucks by allowing the substandard specimens back into the gene pool.

---

__________________
MANIAC MY NAME HUNTING MY GAME!!
MANIAC BLOOD ROCKS!! WHERE THE TRACK POWER IS!!

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy24/maniacjr4/SAM_0522.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/1619.jpg

IF YOU WANT TO PACK HUNT
BUY YOU A PAIR BEAGLES!


GR NITE CH. HARWOODMANIAC JR 4 # 2 TOP 100 UKC WORLD 2013 OWNER JAY HYDE & DAVID DEPEW




GRNITE CH Hoghill Harwood Kasper
owners Hyde Warlick Leatherman
Qualified for 2013 world Hhunt
OWNER HYDE & WARLICK LEATHERMAN. MY PH 574 306 8438
K-LIGHTS ph.936 767 4965
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy24/maniacjr4/SAM_0734.jpg

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 344

quote:

---

Originally posted by elvis
Talk is cheap. Where are these genetic wonders that are head and shoulders above the rest?
Im glad someone is working on building a better mousetrap, but Ive been listning to it for decades and if anything we are catching fewer mice today then we did 30 yrs ago.

Makes for interesting discussion though. Yall keep thinking youve got it figured out and I will keep waiting to see the results.

---

Last edited by Skyward on 12-25-2008 at 06:32 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skyward
Uhhh....its been happening in many breeds. Open your eyes and close your mouth and you'd see it mousecatcher. Its interesting though, I am sure that in your 30 years you are in part responsible for the mouse catchers of today. So its no wonder that more "mouse" were caught 30 years ago BEFORE you took part in it. Kinda sums up the results of your efforts.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2008
Location:
Posts: 3550

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skyward
Uhhh....its been happening in many breeds. Open your eyes and close your mouth and you'd see it mousecatcher. Its interesting though, I am sure that in your 30 years you are in part responsible for the mouse catchers of today. So its no wonder that more "mouse" were caught 30 years ago BEFORE you took part in it. Kinda sums up the results of your efforts. So while my talk can be cheap, your efforts have been worthless.

---

__________________
MANIAC MY NAME HUNTING MY GAME!!
MANIAC BLOOD ROCKS!! WHERE THE TRACK POWER IS!!

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy24/maniacjr4/SAM_0522.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/1619.jpg

IF YOU WANT TO PACK HUNT
BUY YOU A PAIR BEAGLES!


GR NITE CH. HARWOODMANIAC JR 4 # 2 TOP 100 UKC WORLD 2013 OWNER JAY HYDE & DAVID DEPEW




GRNITE CH Hoghill Harwood Kasper
owners Hyde Warlick Leatherman
Qualified for 2013 world Hhunt
OWNER HYDE & WARLICK LEATHERMAN. MY PH 574 306 8438
K-LIGHTS ph.936 767 4965
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy24/maniacjr4/SAM_0734.jpg

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 441

Elvis unless I'm mistaken it was explained to me this is kind of what Russ has done by staying within his line and he has made these tight crosses to maintain his line!!!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 344

quote:

---

Originally posted by elvis
are these dogs being kept under lock and key somewhere or can you show me the results of your superior knowledge.
can you at least name a few that your superiority has produced?
or do you just talk the talk?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skyward
I have already stated that my efforts were in a different breed. I'm not sure where the "superiority" accusations came from, unless of course....I struck a nerve. But hey, I offered up a couple of cents on something that I know about, in hopes of providing an alternative way for some to improve the breed. I have no aspirations of being a somebody in the world of coon dawgs. I have been searching high and low for a couple of pups for my own personal use and its been tough to let go of my own standards when I was active in breeding. Way too much peddling and scatterbred breedings for my taste. In all honesty, I would even pay someone to do a breeding for me so that I could buy the litter. The search has been that frustrating. If you aren't producing better dogs than you started out with 30 years ago, go ahead and leave the building elvis as you demonstrate exactly why my search has been that frustrating.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

---

Originally posted by John M. Horner
Elvis unless I'm mistaken it was explained to me this is kind of what Russ has done by staying within his line and he has made these tight crosses to maintain his line!!!

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 344

Thank you elvis. While my experience is in a different breed, I believe that the same principles would work with coon dogs. The common factor being performance. Performance was my number one goal with producing potential a close second. I agree with you that any program being performanced based, is much more difficult in isolating desirable traits and weeding out the undesirables. My focus was on producing a consistent line of dogs and not so much that one world beater. By reducing a gene pool to known factors, it was easier to maintain the consistency that I was looking for in performance. Scatterbreeding just gave me awhole lot more factors, both good and bad, to deal with. It became impossible to develop breedings that were even half way predictable. Sort of like dipping a spoon in some vegetable soup, you never know which letters would show up in the spoon. But by eliminating A thru M, it became a little easier to know what was going to pop up. Thats kind of a pre-school analogy but it rings true with genetics. If you know what is contained, over time you can predict fairly accurately what will show up. The only way for breeders to know what their breeding stock contains, is to do breedings that will show them. Cull the substandard and utilize those that more closely honor your ideals. Sooner or later I'll find some linebred stock to purchase but until then, I won't be the guinea pig that most look for. lol

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

I believe a number of folks have mastered the art of breeding coonhounds and being able to predict many of the traits these pups will have. Color, mouth,temperment,and many others.And by doing so they can build a dog that is best suited for them and their area. If they want them to compete with ,they can breed for traits that will give the dog an edge in the hunts.
But what many end up with is a whole line of mediocre dogs that have excactly 0 better chance of produceing the young superstar we are all looking for, than John Doe who just throws 2 good coonhounds in a pen together and raises a litter of pups.

Mr. Horner has one of those young superstars and he would very much like to duplicate him. I dont blame him and wish him the best, but the odds are not in his favor. Those kind that are freakishly good will ruin a man for life and forevermore keep him looking for another. If someone can figure out how to duplicate those, he will be the greatest coonhound breeder of all time.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 344

lol I agree. You get a world beater and it makes you raise your standards a bit higher. I have kept four dogs in my kennel in the event that the urge hits me again to try and create another. But if not, I know that the litter I would produce could stand next to any man's and hold their own across the board.
If Mr. Horner's intent is to try and duplicate his animal, he is certainly on the right path by breeding back to the very same gene pool that created him.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 94

would you at leat tell me wat breed of dogs you bread for 20 years.i should know your dogs line.ELVIS SOUNDS LIKE THE MAN KNOWS WAT HE IS DOING A UNCELE AND NEICE CROSS IS THE ONLEY WAY TO GO no closer.that is the cross i make on my line when needed for protection dogs and it WORKS and it has worked for over 60 pluss years on one mans line of dogs and there not cheap eather.our milatery buy dogs from him for the last 50 plus years.his line of dogs can smell cocan in a swimming poll 12 foot deep that is harder than a dog smelling the water a dead bodey is in but dogs can find humans in deep deep water becals of the gasses that come up.the breeder i am talking about lives in the us.JOHN if you will pm me your phone number i can give you a breeders number you mite wount to talke to.

__________________
roll em out boys

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 344

Catch dogs dogboy. Performance is everything. APBT.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 214

quote:

---

Originally posted by elvis
Talk is cheap. Where are these genetic wonders that are head and shoulders above the rest?

---

__________________
Dane
________________________________
Crimson Sunrise Kennels
Please email me if you know
GRCH 'PR' Crimson Sunrise Fire Storm

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged