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Oak Ridge
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:
Originally posted by wjoey
But with AQHA you get a lot more money for your effort, but like they say if you wana make money follow it and its surely not with dogs or at lest not on the receiving end.

I don't think you do..

In 2014 AQHA paid out $2.1 Million. But the point value was $17.41 for owner of shown animals, and $13.86 for stallion owners.

I don't know if you show horses or not...but entry fees are north of $50.00 per class, and in most shows you have to rent a $100 a day stall....

There is NO money in the AQHA incentive fund.....

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01-20-2017 12:46 AM

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Is interest waning? Are Sire enrollments decreasing? Are litter nominations decreasing? Are buyers no longer demanding that pups be Performance eligible? Since the point value is decreasing, it would seem that the number of dogs and people earning money is increasing. I guess that they need to decide if it is better for more people to get less money or fewer people get more money.
Of course, everyone wants more money but someone's going to have to pay for it in the end. If you increase Sire enrollment fees, then breeders will have to increase stud fees. If you increase litter enrollment fees, then pup prices will go up.

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01-20-2017 12:55 AM

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H.W. Moore
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is interest waning? Are Sire enrollments decreasing? Are litter nominations decreasing? Are buyers no longer demanding that pups be Performance eligible? Since the point value is decreasing, it would seem that the number of dogs and people earning money is increasing. I guess that they need to decide if it is better for more people to get less money or fewer people get more money.
Of course, everyone wants more money but someone's going to have to pay for it in the end. If you increase Sire enrollment fees, then breeders will have to increase stud fees. If you increase litter enrollment fees, then pup prices will go up.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, No. Hunt numbers are down nationwide. Stud fees & pup prices have been stagnant for 20 years if those prices are raised some to offset slightly higher fees that should be acceptable.

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01-20-2017 02:05 AM

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wjoey
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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: La fayette Georgia
Posts: 2144

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
I don't think you do..

In 2014 AQHA paid out $2.1 Million. But the point value was $17.41 for owner of shown animals, and $13.86 for stallion owners.

I don't know if you show horses or not...but entry fees are north of $50.00 per class, and in most shows you have to rent a $100 a day stall....

There is NO money in the AQHA incentive fund.....

I received a check for $4785 in 2014 $5658 in 2012 and one in 2009 for $8610 of coarse that was with the 2 time AQHA horse of the year and a world champion so tell me a coon hound that got paid that much, sure its more expensive to show horses but a good one will make 100x more than a world champion coon dog, we averaged spending $1000 to $1500 at weekend end shows and brought home anywhere from 0 to $6k so I know the Show Horse world very well. I'm looking for another winner right now as legend and rebel passed away.

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01-20-2017 12:26 PM

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H.W. Moore
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:
Originally posted by wjoey
I received a check for $4785 in 2014 $5658 in 2012 and one in 2009 for $8610 of coarse that was with the 2 time AQHA horse of the year and a world champion so tell me a coon hound that got paid that much, sure its more expensive to show horses but a good one will make 100x more than a world champion coon dog, we averaged spending $1000 to $1500 at weekend end shows and brought home anywhere from 0 to $6k so I know the Show Horse world very well. I'm looking for another winner right now as legend and rebel passed away.

Holy cow!! You spent up to $1500 a weekend and sometimes brought home $0? How many w-ends did you show in 2014 to receive $4785 was it more than 4? The Pkc world champion pays $30,000 every year..

Last edited by H.W. Moore on 01-20-2017 at 01:38 PM

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01-20-2017 01:32 PM

yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Ohh HW only one minor detail you left out how many dogs do you got to beat to win it I never could get past the three I drew lol.

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01-20-2017 01:38 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

quote:
Originally posted by wjoey
....we averaged spending $1000 to $1500 at weekend end shows...

And that is why I quit showing horses and started hunting coonhounds.

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01-20-2017 02:12 PM

H.W. Moore
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

I ain't never made it to the finals either, but I've won some $. Made it to the finals of the SS and semi finals a couple times. Surely he won more than that with a world champion quarter horse, Bone has won more than that on a w-end several times..

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01-20-2017 02:22 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

PKC hunters hunt for the money or at least the dream of winning the money. UKC hunters do it for different reasons. The Performance Program was not set up to make anyone rich. It is just a little bonus to maybe win back your entry fee. Everyone knows that if you want to win big money, you have to hunt big PKC hunts.

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01-20-2017 03:01 PM

H.W. Moore
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

Most competition hunters hunt to compete. When Ukc didn't have any competition they didn't need any programs to compete. Send us $ and we'll send you paperwork and give titles to repeat winners. Fast forward to now and you got 3 registries fighting for business in a shrinking market. 2 offer instant cash winnings that will increase yearly. 1 offers a year end payout that decreases yearly. Ukc still gives titles but with current attendance what's their value?

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01-20-2017 03:18 PM

wjoey
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by H.W. Moore
Holy cow!! You spent up to $1500 a weekend and sometimes brought home $0? How many w-ends did you show in 2014 to receive $4785 was it more than 4? The Pkc world champion pays $30,000 every year.. [/QUOTE

Every weekend , very seldom came home with zero but it happens ,but got to remember the money that came from breeding and our foal crops too, all our checks were from our stallion and foal crop that won it takes money to make money, you will spend close to $800 guaranteed if you go to the winter classic and you wont make a nickel.

Last edited by wjoey on 01-20-2017 at 06:44 PM

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01-20-2017 06:29 PM

wjoey
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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: La fayette Georgia
Posts: 2144

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
And that is why I quit showing horses and started hunting coonhounds.

You can fall off a pony but not a redbone lol

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01-20-2017 06:30 PM

H.W. Moore
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:
Originally posted by wjoey
[QUOTE]Originally posted by H.W. Moore
Holy cow!! You spent up to $1500 a weekend and sometimes brought home $0? How many w-ends did you show in 2014 to receive $4785 was it more than 4? The Pkc world champion pays $30,000 every year.. [/QUOTE

Every weekend , very seldom came home with zero but it happens ,but got to remember the money that came from breeding and our foal crops too, all our checks were from our stallion and foal crop that won it takes money to make money, you will spend close to $800 guaranteed if you go to the winter classic and you wont make a nickel.

I don't know much about horses, but like the economic side of anything. If you attend 26 shows a year at an average of $1250 a show that's $32,500 and get an incentive check for $4-8k do you make the $24-28k back on studs & foals yearly? What's the typical cost of a consistent winner should you purchase 1?

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01-20-2017 07:35 PM

Jgarrett
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2012
Location: AR
Posts: 291

quote:
Originally posted by H.W. Moore
In 1995 I purchased a Chevy ex- cab 4x4 for just over $18,000 put $.97 gas in it and drove to Kentucky and bought a well bred pup for $250. I purchased a 2016 Chevy recently for $37,000 and can put $2.21 gas in it and go to Kentucky and still buy a well bred pup for $250. There's a financial reason lights, dog boxes, boots, tracking systems, and feed are 50%+/- higher and stud fees, pups, and finished dogs are about the same.

I purchased a 2000 Toyota tocoma with 9,000 in 2001 for $13,750 and I'm still driving it! You should have invested more wisely. I'm just kidding. In my opinion the performance program is nothing more than a gimmick where UKC can make a few more dollars off of the hunter. Here is my experience with the performance program.

I have never seen a dime from the performance program despite paying up 6 pups and buying a female that was paid up. Three of the paid up pups turned out to be duds. One of them died. The female we bought won some cast and made Nt Ch and I felt like we should have saw a few dollars off of her but didn't. We bought one pup and made him a Nt Ch but we forgot to paying him up before he turned 9 months old. Currently we have two 15 month old males we are training that I would wager pretty high on that they will make Gr Nt Ch. Neither of them are performance pups because their sire is not a performance sire. I just paid up 2 six month old pups and if I don't see a return on these pups I'm done with the program.

I would bet most people's experience with the program is the same as mine and that is why it is failing

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01-20-2017 08:01 PM

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wjoey
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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: La fayette Georgia
Posts: 2144

quote:
Originally posted by H.W. Moore
I don't know much about horses, but like the economic side of anything. If you attend 26 shows a year at an average of $1250 a show that's $32,500 and get an incentive check for $4-8k do you make the $24-28k back on studs & foals yearly? What's the typical cost of a consistent winner should you purchase 1?

we got lucky with the one that done all the winning , I stole him for 6k and turned down a whole lot more, one of his caliber will cost you and are rare that's why I don't have one right now, always the next foal crop looking for a winner, good breed foals will cost around 6-150k depending on breeding color and conformation , just like any sport your not gona get rich doing it you just have to love it and have a little luck, one thing about those two horses they paid income taxes every year and those kind are hard to find.If your going to the winter classic look me up I will be looking at horses all week there

Last edited by wjoey on 01-21-2017 at 12:23 AM

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01-21-2017 12:20 AM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Oh my goodness, I just saw where they have more than 900 entries for the UKC Winter Classic. How much money are they paying out there? What in the world is motivating all of those people to spend all of that money to hunt in it? How many dogs will they hunt at the PKC Winter Classic on Fri and Sat night where all of that money motivates them?

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01-21-2017 03:29 PM

wjoey
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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: La fayette Georgia
Posts: 2144

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, I just saw where they have more than 900 entries for the UKC Winter Classic. How much money are they paying out there? What in the world is motivating all of those people to spend all of that money to hunt in it? How many dogs will they hunt at the PKC Winter Classic on Fri and Sat night where all of that money motivates them?

Don't you wish we could have big hunts or at least 4-5 cast around here again Richard ? I remember when the club at Chattanooga by the interstate would be full and so would be Birchwood and ft Payne we had as many as 30 dogs t Lafayette

Last edited by wjoey on 01-21-2017 at 04:58 PM

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01-21-2017 03:33 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

We don't have the places/guides to hunt that many dogs any more. It is a shame. We have the same number of dogs to show up at our UKC hunts as we have at our PKC hunts. So I really don't see how "money is the best motivator". It is a big motivator for sure but there are other big motivators also.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 01-22-2017 at 04:17 AM

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01-21-2017 03:51 PM

wjoey
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So how much performance money am I going to win at the winter classic? I believe its limited to 2 points and I have to out score over 900 dogs so maybe $200

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01-21-2017 05:00 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

I guess that money isn't the motivator for those 900+ entries then. I wonder why they are going?

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01-21-2017 05:19 PM

H.W. Moore
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I guess that money isn't the motivator for those 900+ entries then. I wonder why they are going?

Prestige. Win a major event against 100s of other dogs and you have something to be proud of. Win a local hunt with one or two other cast not so much. I suggested these changes to help increase hunters interest at local clubs not major heavily advertised events..

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01-21-2017 10:37 PM

wjoey
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Guess I'm a prestige hunter then

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01-21-2017 10:58 PM

John B.Dalton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Kenbridge,va
Posts: 3041

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I guess that money isn't the motivator for those 900+ entries then. I wonder why they are going?

Most are going to get your autograph brother richard. The drive and intestinal fortitude to follow your breed of choice for as many years as you have is surely worth a few bucks to at least several hundred of them..Wish you all safe travels!!

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01-21-2017 11:02 PM