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everett
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Ar.
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Blueticks at the world' why we caint win it

It's past time that the truth be told, First off the biggest hold back is us, our breed associations and I mean all of them, are more interested in cutting one another down than working together, lies are told, stories are straight up fabricated, a straight up recipe for division, This carry's right over into the various bloodlines that the breed is comprised of. Allen G. and I spoke a while back on some of these related issues and taking a moment to first be honest with myself I think now he was right, one for all and all for one, Taking a quote from the good book say's it all, 'A house divided can't stand; This has to start with us as individuals, honesty about our breed, it's few strengths, it's many weakness, work together to breed out what has held us back for so many years, that means throw the bloodline issue in the trash can, I realize this has been suggested numerous times in the past but has never been acted upon, The differences in opinions on what traits it takes to rise to the top is a dime a dozen, you can bet any football team with expectations of winning the national championship study's it's adversaries in preparation 0f there quest, All must be willing to compromise to achieve the Goal, willing to test our hounds in unfavorable conditions, everyone wants to hunt where the walking is easy and the coons are plentiful, that's all fun and great, but when the rubber meets the road the road don't always run down the fence line, in short' We need one Association that recognizes the need for change, Albert Einstein said it all to well, "quote" The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different results. "unquote" I for one want to see a UKC Bluetick world champion, it's going to take change and compromise, when we can first accept that concept then act upon it together, THEN WE WILL HAVE OUR WORLD CHAMPION BLUE DOG..................Gerald

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09-23-2018 04:45 PM

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southernthunder
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I would love to see a bluetick win it all.I agree with some of your points of view but not on some. If having only 1 association is the answer how do the Walkers and English win more than anyone with more associations than any other breed? It's more about having and hunting the right kind of dog than anything along with some luck imo.

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09-23-2018 05:08 PM

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Drummerblue2
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Registered: Jun 2016
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Everett

I agree with you I firmly believe the good book and what it says about a divided house..In my hounest opinion I think we can get it done with a blue dog ,and here is how I think we can do it .I think if a bunch of us blue tickers would get r heads together and work together with the common goal to win the world hunt I think we could make it happen but we must forget about blood lines and the associations and focus on the one goal wining the world hunt I believe there is hounds in the breed that have the tools. We just need to work together there will never be one breeder are handler make it all happen it will take a group effort .to many breeders and hunters and associations wanting the glory that's why blue hasn't done much compared to others just my way of thinking have a good day.

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09-23-2018 08:35 PM

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pamjohnson
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I don't get to hunt with many blue dogs but I try to as often as possible. I have not seen any good enough yet honestly. It takes a really special dog I feel. Sure I have seen some good blues. Even some winners but not much to get excited about. It Will take luck but a special dog as well. I would like to see 1 association but I don't see were that matters 1 way or another. Bloodlines I don't think matter as much as traits. Traits now that is were the blues have problems. If ya need a trait in the walkers it's not hard to figure out were to start looking for it. Ya need a trait in the blues well good luck figuring out were to start looking. God forbid someone talks about a blue dog like they would trackman, rat,clover ,Harry or lipper blood. I don't think it matters if it is a group of fellows or a single person either. Why would that matter? Not all world champions were group owned or hunted. We could use some serious hunters. How do we do that? My guess would be with some serious blue talent.

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09-24-2018 12:03 AM

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everett
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pam

I have hunted blue dogs for 30 plus years, and have seen the best in the breed and the worst, with that said I will answer your question as to one person producing consistent top level blue dogs, the ukc world hunt format was first held in 1978, a walker male named Loomis tom won it, I probably misspelled the first name lol, how ever since 1978 there has not been one single breeder in the bluetick breed that has produced a blue dog that carry's the title ukc world night hunt champion, it's going to take as Jason said a group of us guys/ladies coming together and putting the right stuff together to achieve the traits it takes to go win it all with some level of constancy, There are several blue dogs out there have some of the trait's that it will take to accomplish the goal, however after 40 years of coming up short I would say it's safe to say no one blue breeder has it all. As far as Ass. is concerned it should be an organized effort to promote and better the breed in it's use that the Ass. is envolving the breed in, In this case it is comp. hunts, over the last 30 years I have seen division between the blue Ass. that created walls and boundries among it's members from one side to the next. There has been crosses that absolutely should have been made but never happened due to the separation, with that said this is in no means an attempt to bad mouth any person's or Ass. Without the realization that change is needed another 40 years will probably render pretty much the same result, This is not a negative post it is a positive post that is meant to arouse a fire in our hunters and breeders that say's to them we can do this if we just work together, sometimes sand paper is needed to scratch through the rough exterior to get down to the real suface, then you can polish the and shine things up........Gerald

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09-24-2018 03:48 AM

Surveyor
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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Paragon IN
Posts: 1100

Re: pam

quote:
Originally posted by everett
I have hunted blue dogs for 30 plus years, and have seen the best in the breed and the worst, with that said I will answer your question as to one person producing consistent top level blue dogs, the ukc world hunt format was first held in 1972, a walker male named Loomis tom won it, I probably misspelled the first name lol, how ever since 1972 there has not been one single breeder in the bluetick breed that has produced a blue dog that carry's the title ukc world night hunt champion, it's going to take as Jason said a group of us guys/ladies coming together and putting the right stuff together to achieve the traits it takes to go win it all with some level of constancy, There are several blue dogs out there have some of the trait's that it will take to accomplish the goal, however after 46 years of coming up short I would say it's safe to say no one blue breeder has it all. As far as Ass. is concerned it should be an organized effort to promote and better the breed in it's use that the Ass. is envolving the breed in, In this case it is comp. hunts, over the last 30 years I have seen division between the blue Ass. that created walls and boundries among it's members from one side to the next. There has been crosses that absolutely should have been made but never happened due to the separation, with that said this is in no means an attempt to bad mouth any person's or Ass. Without the realization that change is needed another 46 years will probably render pretty much the same result, This is not a negative post it is a positive post that is meant to arouse a fire in our hunters and breeders that say's to them we can do this if we just work together, sometimes sand paper is needed to scratch through the rough exterior to get down to the real suface, then you can polish the and shine things up........Gerald

Actually first UKC world hunt was in 1978. Allen actually talked about it at the finals this year, not that there is a big difference in 46 unsuccessful years vs 40, I'm just kind of picky on facts.

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09-24-2018 12:53 PM

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southernthunder
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Re: Re: pam

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
Actually first UKC world hunt was in 1978. Allen actually talked about it at the finals this year, not that there is a big difference in 46 unsuccessful years vs 40, I'm just kind of picky on facts.

Your so picky lol

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09-24-2018 02:00 PM

everett
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Ar.
Posts: 2471

Re: Re: pam

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
Actually first UKC world hunt was in 1978. Allen actually talked about it at the finals this year, not that there is a big difference in 46 unsuccessful years vs 40, I'm just kind of picky on facts.

Yep, I don't know where I my brain got 72 from, getting old I recon lol.....Gerald

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09-24-2018 08:12 PM

everett
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Re: Re: pam

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
Actually first UKC world hunt was in 1978. Allen actually talked about it at the finals this year, not that there is a big difference in 46 unsuccessful years vs 40, I'm just kind of picky on facts.

Yep, I don't know where I my brain got 72 from, getting old I recon lol.....Gerald

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09-24-2018 08:12 PM

southernthunder
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Re: Re: Re: pam

quote:
Originally posted by everett
Yep, I don't know where I my brain got 72 from, getting old I recon lol.....Gerald

Old is an understatement lol

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09-24-2018 09:51 PM

pamjohnson
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Posts: 2074

Gerald I have thought about what your saying and I still feel that would be a rather weak excuse.
To me I feel the blueticks are very well balanced group of dogs which is a positive thing but I also feel it hinders the breed from having as many extremely outstanding individuals.

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09-25-2018 01:40 PM

Ron Moore
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By no means am I trying to act like I have an answer for why we can't win the UKC World, just observations like most everyone else. Some good points have been raised here and usually are after we loose every year. One of the hardest things to do for most of us is to recognize someone else's achievements without a little bit of jealousy or envy. That's human nature, we all are guilty! Put that aside and look what you're leading and then what you need to be leading. If you're satisfied with what you have and don't want to advance, than good but if not, look farther than your own kennel/bloodline. All of us have our own special type of Bluetick or bloodline but that doesn't mean it couldn't get better. My days of hopes of hunting in the World are over but I still strive to have a better dog and will never quit. I have had most every line of bluetick within the breed and am not afraid to try something new regardless of what someone else thinks. Everyone gets a dog finished to Gr Nite and thinks its worthy of winning a world hunt. We need to look at what consistently gets to the top and ask ourselves why this happens. It's usually a combination of dog power, handler, conditions, terrain, and lastly, luck. IMO, the first is the most important! I have never made it to the world but have taken my best to breed to the best at that time, no matter what bloodline they were. That's how it's done and even then you may not get what you want but it's better than setting on the sidelines. As far as breed associations, I belong to both because I promote the Bluetick hound, not the association. If someone gets mad because we step outside the circle then maybe it's better that they step out instead of you stepping back in. I have now the nicest female I've had in years and when it comes time, you can bet I will carry her to what I consider the best no matter what Bluetick bloodline it is. Hope everyone had a wonderful day and congrats to Curley Jane and all the other Blueticks that participated.

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09-25-2018 02:20 PM

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Vic Stoll
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Blue Dogs & Elimination Style Hunts

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Moore
By no means am I trying to act like I have an answer for why we can't win the UKC World, just observations like most everyone else. Some good points have been raised here and usually are after we lose every year.

We need to look at what consistently gets to the top and ask ourselves why this happens.

Ron, I agree

If this discussion has happened once, it's happened a hundred times!

If the point of this discussion is to win Elimination Style hunts with a Blue dog, wouldn't a good starting point be to enter up ole Blue in multiple Elimination Style hunts & see how he/she stacks up? With the exception of the UKC World hunt, very few Blue dog owners will enter up in these style hunts in any other registry. Why is that?

Would a good starting point be to have a look at the few Blue dogs that have had some success in multiple Elimination Style hunts & pick those dog's owners/breeders brains? How many folks that have commented on this thread (including the originator) have entered ole Blue in an Elimination Style hunt this year where there were over 25 dogs present?

Until ole Blue starts getting entered up against some of the most elite Elimination Style hunt winning hounds in the country, we are still setting exactly where we are at.

Heaven forbid Blue dog owners seek the council of an unaffiliated & unbiased individual that has been very successful in Elimination Style hunts & ask for their critique.

Bottom line, kennel blindness, Breed Assoc. division, etc. are all convenient excuses fueled by a personal agenda the majority of the time.

Hunt ole Blue, & enter ole Blue up ..... that is the starting point that needs to be gotten to first.

These ramblings & a couple $$ are good for a cup of Java at some fine establishments

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09-25-2018 06:03 PM

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everett
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hunt ole blue and enter ole blue

Thats your starting point, well that's a 40 year starting point, its past time to move on from what hasn't worked, but I didn't post this to try to influence anyone who is satisfied where they and their hounds are, this was meant for no doubt a select few that are willing to step outside the block and work on traits that us few feel will give our breed a better shot, but the saying goes talk is cheap, let's wait and see, good luck and hunting ole blue....Gerald

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09-25-2018 07:11 PM

Major18
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Registered: Apr 2018
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Hate to tell y'all this but Vic is correct. The blue dogs problem has always been the same one. When you start the hunt with only a 10 to 20% chance of winning, it takes a lot more luck than if you start with an 80% chance. If you believe that there are no blue dogs out there that could have won that final cast, you need to get out of the house more. There are a small handful of dogs in every breed that are hard to beat, but even those dogs catch a bad break every now and then.
If blue dogs want to win the world hunt, then you have to have enough of them show up.
Thirty years ago I wrote a column for bluetick association. I always ended the column with " You can't win, if you're not there." Jay Williams

Congratulations to the blue dogs that competed!

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09-25-2018 08:09 PM

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everett
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history dont agree

quote:
Originally posted by Major18
Hate to tell y'all this but Vic is correct. The blue dogs problem has always been the same one. When you start the hunt with only a 10 to 20% chance of winning, it takes a lot more luck than if you start with an 80% chance. If you believe that there are no blue dogs out there that could have won that final cast, you need to get out of the house more. There are a small handful of dogs in every breed that are hard to beat, but even those dogs catch a bad break every now and then.
If blue dogs want to win the world hunt, then you have to have enough of them show up.
Thirty years ago I wrote a column for bluetick association. I always ended the column with " You can't win, if you're not there." Jay Williams

Congratulations to the blue dogs that competed!

I'm in no way convinced of that, black dogs , English, even a plott has proven that the numbers theory is just an excuse, we have had 4 or 5 over the years in the final cast but could not come out top dog, To them I say congrats and great job but the works not done, look at the number of blue dogs that went to the finals vs the number of English, not that much of a difference , then 1 blue dog moves on, 9 English move on, each blue dog had the opportunity to win his cast but came up short except 1, if that's exceptable for you that's awesome, but it don't make the cut for me, I'll be concentrating on improving traits in what I lead, time will tell, no excuses will be made......Gerald

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09-25-2018 10:47 PM

pamjohnson
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Well said Gerald!

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09-26-2018 01:40 PM

BigContry
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These are real questions, I�m not trying to stir the pot. Where are we falling short? What traits are we missing? Can we identify them? Is it the ability of the hounds or us, as handlers?

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09-26-2018 04:34 PM

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everett
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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Ar.
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traits

quote:
Originally posted by BigContry
These are real questions, I�m not trying to stir the pot. Where are we falling short? What traits are we missing? Can we identify them? Is it the ability of the hounds or us, as handlers?

Tommy, on several occasions I have ask the question for public opinion as a means of research, most bluetickers say they want colder nosed dogs, I have no problem with that if a hound has the brains to use his nose correctly, unfortunately the larger percentage of blue dogs does not, most have to stick their nose in the dirt and make every step the coon did as well as over using their mouth, the main missing trait is layup ability, think of this, If a hound can wind a coon In a tree that has not yet been down and fall treed on it, it only stands to reason that when running/trailing a coon that when the hound comes within the vicinity of where the coon went up he can pick the tree much quicker rather than have to trail or work a track all the way to the tree, on the track issue, we need drifting type track dogs, no matter the conditions of the track, blueticks have not inherited the nick name booticks for no reason, I have these traits in my kennel and am going to breed to inhance these traits so they become dominate traits when I breed, these are the traits I'll be looking for when I breed a female or a male. As far as handlers, we have had some of the best, you can enter the Indy 500 with a vw bug and put Gordon, Ernhart, petty, whoever, but the odds are just slim to bet on the bug, You have to have the right engine, tires, the vehicle has to have the right tools no matter who's behind the wheel...... Gerald

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09-26-2018 06:49 PM

shadinc
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Gerald, from the small sample I've seen, I think you're on the right track.

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09-26-2018 07:17 PM

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ov_blues
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John Vaught as a question on the message board a few years ago that I put some thought into which was "do the blue dogs as a whole have the traits needed to put into one dog to produce a blue dog with the tools capable of winning the World Hunt". I thought about it and my answer was sure. The blue dogs have individual dogs with top end tools in any area that could add to the total tools a super dog would need to compete at the highest level. I then started looking at the Walker dogs pedigrees that were winning in the money hunts and big hunts. I noticed that most of them didn't go back to old so and so several times, they usually had 4 great grandsires that were the dominant studs in the Walker dogs history, along with top females, and their ancestors came from different lines of dogs.

I put a thread on here once and ask the question of "if you were going to get tree power, what dog or line would you go to?"," if you were looking for loudness which do?", :if you needed track speed, what dog or line would you go to?", etc. etc. The thing with the Walker breed is that they know where to go in the breeding department to get what they need to add in their dogs which makes them be able to add or strengthen traits in their dogs. I realize they also throw duds but they do throw more dogs that get their pictures taken.

A few years ago I ask different groups of guys who all favored different bloodlines of blue dogs where to go to get dogs with the most track speed. All of them said to go with the bloodlines of dogs that they were hunting. There was only one guy, who I won't mention, who said something different. This particular guy is now getting a reputation in our breed for being able to produce some blue dogs that are above average. I think the first thing in improvement overall is to recognize that somebody else might be packing something a little bit better than we are packing, even if that isn't true, just to keep us all humble and looking for something better.

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09-26-2018 09:08 PM

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ov_blues
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While I'm on a rant, not that I'm anybody but I've been around a little bit anyway, I will add a couple of other things.

Bluetick guys seem to like their money a little bit more than some of the other breeds. If I was a young guy, and hadn't have been born into a bluetick family, I might look at the rewards and efforts of my work if I didn't have any allegiance to any breed. I hear often of Walkers being sold for 10K or more at young ages with money won in the money registries or even just a super nice young prospect. Litters of pups being sold for a lot more than bluetick guys get out of theirs as another example. So my question is, why would one of these young hard hunting young guys get into blueticks if they were into competition hunting? Their reward vs expense is way better in a couple of the other breeds and they don't have to fight an uphill battle to see the improvements, just get a well bred pup, hunt the hair off of it and then go from there. You see a lot of younger guys getting their pictures taken now a days and they aren't holding the tail up on on a blue dog.

Another thing is that the Walker guys specifically aren't afraid to go out and breed to a young dog who has proven that he has the traits necessary to go win a bigger elimination style hunt. If he's winning, and is out of dogs that are proven where they know he wasn't some kind of fluke, they aren't afraid to go breed to the dog. Then if the dog is a good reproducer they will be proven at a younger age and then more people will breed to the dog so that the dog gets fully utilized during the course of it's life. If the dog doesn't reproduce then he will definitely flame out before he is overly used. With Blueticks, the dogs that win don't usually get used until they are a "proven reproducer" and then they are usually old and close to sterility or death before they are used like they should be and then we don't get the full benefit of the best stud dogs. Or, because they are waiting to be proven, some top dogs don't get used at all. Or, some crosses that could have really clicked, although that male wasn't super dominate in one trait, don't get made. I can think of one top blue dog, with a good pedigree, that placed in the top 25 of both the UKC and PKC World Championship in the same year that probably 99% or more of the bluetick guys don't even know exists and isn't getting used at all. That dog is also ligher colored than most bluetick guys prefer so that is another hold back that we know exists in breeding better performing blueticks. Did anyone else notice the 5th place dog in this years World Hunt? If that was a bluetick how many times do you think that dog would be bred to?

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

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09-26-2018 09:24 PM

pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2074

Gerald don't take this the wrong way. I want to pick your brain a little on the lay up dog your talking about. I figure you have way more wisdom and experience than me on this subject.
Here is my view of the lay up dog your talking about. It sounds good but most are just takin a guess which tree so poor accuracy goes hand n hand with this type dog. Not very appealing. Great ones would be very few and far between. Breeding for it seems like a nightmare. Then they still probably need to be a really good track dog or stay away from tracks all together.
Am I close or in left field?

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09-27-2018 12:52 AM

everett
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Ar.
Posts: 2471

layup ability

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
Gerald don't take this the wrong way. I want to pick your brain a little on the lay up dog your talking about. I figure you have way more wisdom and experience than me on this subject.
Here is my view of the lay up dog your talking about. It sounds good but most are just takin a guess which tree so poor accuracy goes hand n hand with this type dog. Not very appealing. Great ones would be very few and far between. Breeding for it seems like a nightmare. Then they still probably need to be a really good track dog or stay away from tracks all together.
Am I close or in left field?

I understand were you ate coming from. However a true layup dog is the most accurate hound you will ever go to the woods with, when they first start out you will experience young dogs missing a tree or two over, that's perfectly normal. As they gain experience they will get very accurate, now with that said. It's like any other traits in our hounds, they must have the brains to use it, but that is necessary in any trait to perform at a top level, you will find, sometimes tree happy hounds can be mislabeled as a hound trying to lay a coon up and looks like a terrible mess which is exactly what it is, layup ability is like any other trait it can be developed and perfected through proper breeding practices and the most useful asset to separate a tree hound can posses. Hope this helps.....Gerald

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09-27-2018 01:58 AM

everett
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Ar.
Posts: 2471

layup ability

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
Gerald don't take this the wrong way. I want to pick your brain a little on the lay up dog your talking about. I figure you have way more wisdom and experience than me on this subject.
Here is my view of the lay up dog your talking about. It sounds good but most are just takin a guess which tree so poor accuracy goes hand n hand with this type dog. Not very appealing. Great ones would be very few and far between. Breeding for it seems like a nightmare. Then they still probably need to be a really good track dog or stay away from tracks all together.
Am I close or in left field?

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09-27-2018 01:58 AM

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