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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Breeds > American Leopard Hound > !!! Open Books Poll !!!
Should the qualified Xbred dogs be allowed back into the ALH breed?
This poll is closed.
Yes 15 37.50%
No 25 62.50%
Maybe 0 0%
I didn't read the X-Breed requirements but I would like to give you my uneducated opinion. 0 0%
Total: 40 votes 100%
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Dan McDonough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

!!! Open Books Poll !!!

Do you think the books should be opened for the American Leopard Hound?

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507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

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Old Post 12-30-2014 09:15 PM
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danny681
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2010
Location: clarksburg,wv
Posts: 404

I have nothing against crossbred dogs, in fact i like em. Just would rather not see them in the leopard breed. So i vote no.

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robert whitten
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2012
Location: canton texas
Posts: 711

me meither , I have a yard full of them . but it is just too soon . no need in being impatient .

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Dan McDonough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

...

Dan- "Beacause" isn't much an argument.

Robert- Too soon? What conditions would you like to wait for? I've heard that answer from a lot of people. When I push them a little, the full explanation comes out like this. I'm paraphrasing: "I want to wait until the breed is noticeably worse before we add anything that will improve it."

Forgive my being crude but that is just completely ass backwards. Where genetics are concerned, adding improvements is exponentially easier when you start with good quality and, conversely, it is exponentially more difficult when the quality is low.

I don't know if that is actually what you meant so excuse me if I'm off on this but you didn't explain yourself any more than Dan did.

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Superstition Mtns., AZ
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Old Post 12-31-2014 05:21 PM
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JohnCox
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2009
Location: Fletcher, Ok
Posts: 1508

Well going by the vote in this poll and the fact I already mailed in the response for the open or close it. I sent it in on the 28th of Dec and post on here that I did so I guess it doesn't matter until 2016 now so we have a whole year to wait. Maybe Dan you should have started your poll before I sent it in. JMO But I do feel it will get opened some year just not this one and I can see where it might help out in some cases but I also see where in some cases it will help out where for example a guy has some pups coming out in certain litters where they don't meet the breed standard for color and that one or two pups turn out to be top notch stock and the books get opened and a cross is made on that dog and its a plus to bring pups back in from those crosses then I see where it could be a plus but until then it doesn't make sense to me. JMO I figure you will agree to that one wouldn't you Dan

Posting this poll after I sent in the response doesn't do anything but stir folks up for no reason lets put our focus in on things to help other Leopard followers out!

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kayapellijed390
Banned

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1442

Never once have I ever seen one single logical, scientifically, or evidence backed reason from anybody who is against this. EVER! Nothing but emotion and feelings. Voting using their feelings instead of their heads. Really though I don't care. I'm gonna do what I want to do in my own kennel and if the breed wants to use or benefit from my labor then fine. If they don't then it's their loss. But their is absolutely no denying that it does work. In my opinion there is something different about crossbreeding with leopards, they are an X factor if you will. It is almost cheating it works so well.

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Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

Last edited by kayapellijed390 on 12-31-2014 at 06:21 PM

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Old Post 12-31-2014 06:15 PM
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kayapellijed390
Banned

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1442

Here is the reason I mess with crossbreeding-

Because when I have tried it, I produced dogs that are BETTER THAN BOTH PARENTS. How many of you can say your "pure" breeding programs accomplish that on a regular basis????

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

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Old Post 12-31-2014 06:19 PM
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robert whitten
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2012
Location: canton texas
Posts: 711

yes you get good dogs from a cross just like you get good gamefowl from a cross it's called hibryd vigor . and in most instances that is where it ends . I'm not a newby to genetics been messing with cross breeding animals for years . to answer your question dan I just feel that the leopards are gaining in a lot of popularity in recent years and a lot of folks are just now figuring out what they are about . there is a large enough gene pool as it is at the moment and no need to let everybody that is learning the breed start bringing in the crosses that may help but most likely will hurt .

the cross breed thing is open now so everybody can cross breed and register AND COMPETE against the walkers in the hunts lol so a person can go ahead and cross their dogs go on out and prove them in the field and in a couple generations see if it holds or if it all falls apart . I feel that is all people that are wanting this are wanting it for is to bring in the walker crosses and go for the gold in the hunts . but you can still do that now . these leps have a lot of breeds running thru their vanes now and I feel diluting it more can wait a while . JMHO

this is just the way I feel at the moment , I plan on crossing my leopard gyp in the future on one of my walkers and I will register them as crossbreeds and if I like the results I will put them pups back on a leapord and work at getting the percentage right to bring them in BUT only if I like the results and believe me I am hard to please , like I said this thing just started and lets just be sure that EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING not just the few . when you mess up a gene pool it is hell to straighten back out .

we have the cross breed registry now and I think that is a win , win for everybody that likes a grade dog now we can hunt them against the pure breeds and have some fun with them lets not be in such a rush to open the books and see what happens . life is short but not that short lol

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kayapellijed390
Banned

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1442

It definitely ain't about that ^ for me.... The one and only thing I care about is catching more game, with less headaches. Winning hunts is just a perk. On a good year I might go to 20 hunts. Prolly only went to a half dozen last year. I'm not gonna base my breeding program around 20 nights a year. I'm gonna base it off the other 345 I have to live and hunt with that dog. They are gonna be awful easy to live with if they are gonna live here.

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Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

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Dan McDonough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

...

I believe the popularity is evidenced by the sheer number of responses to this post. Any arguments?

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Old Post 01-01-2015 06:37 AM
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danny681
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2010
Location: clarksburg,wv
Posts: 404

Dan i guess we just disagree. Yes when you cross two different breeds you can get some exceptional pups. I don't think they reproduce the same. I prefer linebred and inbred dogs from the same family myself. But that's just me. The powers that be can do whatever they want with the breed i don't care . As David said I'll breed the way i want. You asked for a vote and i voted so i guess i'm done here.lol

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perry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: ohio
Posts: 533

this is why

I have not posted on this sight for a couple years now. Post like these are exactly why! Seem like folks like kayapellijed390 and Dan. Mc. lack the ability to respect the opinions of others. I just got tired of seeing it. I got tired of reading if we did not do it their way we were doomed. My 38 years of experience and knowledge were worthless. All those years spent hunting and visiting with people like Richard McDuffy, Dale Bennit, Sherman Borders, Red Sampson, Tommy Byrd, Rex Bowers, Oneil Bennit, Tom Bull, Mike Crawford, John Laker, Rex Laker, Earl Wright, Lamar Meeks, Dean Boester, Dan Noble, John Wick, Don Sorrell, Bob Walters and many more was wasted? No not in my book!
Just look at how few older leopard folks post on this sight. Constant disrespect and bickering has ran them off.
What is the rush about opening the books? If they remain closed how will this prevent those that choose to outcross from proceeding? Personally I want to take the time to make sure I understand it completely as possible and how any decisions made now might affect things down the road. That is why I currently vote NO.

Perry

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snoop1
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Registered: Jan 2015
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Great post Perry

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kayapellijed390
Banned

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1442

Perry

Respect is a two way street. I have never once, ever, said if people don't do things my way they are doomed or the breed is doomed. I have however heard from guys like you how what I am trying to do will ruin the breed, won't work, will just create a bunch of merle colored walkers, etc, etc, etc. The one and only thing I have wanted to do is try to help and improve this breed. Man I sure am a jerk offering my dog at stud, free of charge, to anybody who thinks he may help their breeding program. I just wanna breed the best I can find to the best I can find and run with the best out of those crosses. I haven't ever once said or voted or done anything that effects anyone else's goals, aspirations, or breeding programs. I have asked lots of questions and got very, very, few answers. Questions like how will what I do affect you, your dogs, and your breeding program? What will it hurt? Why do you guys say time and time again that it won't work, when I can show countless examples in every breed that contradict that? I just want the freedom to try, without getting roadblocked by buearacratic B.S. from guys who just assume things about me, my dogs, and my goals. Guys who will be 100% unaffected by what I do. Does that sound like I disrespect your opinion? Seems to me that it is the other way around......

If you only answer one question, I hope it is this- WHAT WILL IT HURT?

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

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curs12
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 574

I think the crossing idea is great as long as you can keep the handling and the good around the yard dog, the only reason i have anything to do with curs is because they handle and are good around the yard and can ride in the truck to town, they are usually not high strung and are just decent etc...

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kayapellijed390
Banned

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1442

quote:
Originally posted by curs12
I think the crossing idea is great as long as you can keep the handling and the good around the yard dog, the only reason i have anything to do with curs is because they handle and are good around the yard and can ride in the truck to town, they are usually not high strung and are just decent etc...


I promise you can, I have proven that time and time again. Old geezer's love hunting with my dogs, so do the young hard chargers.

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

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Dan McDonough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

...

What David said. I don't come on here and make things up. Not one of the other kennels has to buy what I produce and there is a pile of evidence out there to back up what I say which is usually well spelled out in my posts anyway.

This all reminds me of the people that like to say that computers are a fad and wear that statement as a badge of courage. Those people are always asking me to look things up on the internet for them...drives me nuts!

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507-261-9121 (C)
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Old Post 01-02-2015 05:13 AM
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americancooner
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Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 5

Mr. McDonough

Don't mean any disrespect but what will makes your x bred hounds better than what Mr. Ganus has produced? I know that you got your original Hounds from him and he gave you hounds for your start. What are his hounds missing that you can improve on? Have his lines not worked for you?I have followed Mr. Ganus' leopard hounds for several years and your leopard dogs he gave you from his stock. I thought that they were the best dogs available from reading your posts. What has changed?I have been thinking of switching from English to Leopards. If the breed is not improving, maybe it's to early to change. What traits are lacking in Mr. Ganus' hounds? What hounds have you bred in to the Ganus stock the last 5 or 6 years to make them better? I saw on a post that you said you had been x breeding for that long.I hope that if they can be improved that you accomplish it. Good luck.Maybe I'll try a dog from you when you get to breeding good. Thanks for the info.

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Old Post 01-04-2015 12:23 AM
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Dan McDonough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

...

They all can use something more. The best dog I've hunted with was my Jug's Sparklin Rachel out of Wick's Camo Jug and Schulze's SParklin Susie. She could have used a thicker coat of hair. I would have liked it if she was kennel quiet and they can always use more endurance though I never did wear her out cat hunting 6 days a week through our Northern winters. She did get a little soft about coming out of the box when it was less than 15 degrees below zero. That's a pretty short list of shortcomings though, but still...she could have been more. I have not made another that was better than she was but she was a freek.

I'm going to make the crosses anyhow but I would like to be able to put them back in if their good enough. The likelihood of that happening is low.

Ganus dogs are very good but I guess I'm spoiled and want even more. I think Ron would say the same. In fact, I know he would say the same. He's always looking to improve.

This reminds me of a long ago interview with John D. Rockefeller. When he was asked how much money is enough? How much money do you need? He responded, "Just a little more." I feel the same way about dogs.

As far as what I've put into the Ganus stock to make them better...nothing. With the exception of a few litters, I've mostly just bred brother to sister to reshuffle the deck so to speak. I have been trying to get another Rachel with at least one improvement (like that thicker coat of hair). The best "other" cross I've made was the cross with a dog named Dutch. Ducth was out of Abbott's Mtn. State Bandit (Myer's Bone Hollow Scout x Abbott's Mtn. State Sadie) bred back to his mother who is a Jug x Susie dog.

One more thing, the best Ganus dogs are not lacking in any of the main traits and that is why I like them so much as a base. They also hold up well to inbreeding as long as you don't expect a 7/7 turn out. There is always a dinger in the litters but it always been well over 50% turnout and that is very good in my book.

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American Leopard Hounds
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Old Post 01-04-2015 03:23 AM
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americancooner
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Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
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Thank you Mr. McDonough

I'll watch how your X bred hounds perform in the future. Have you got any pictures of that Rachel dog or your other hounds treeing cats? What traits do you think you will add to your hounds that they currently don't have going for them? There is a guy out Montana way that has some bang up Leopard hounds treeing big cats. I can't remember his name. Are his hounds Ganus dogs too?
Thanks.

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americancooner
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Mr. McDonough

The boys and me were talking at the coffee house up town this morning in Minnesota and talking about your post. My buddy Jan said he bred cross up dogs for years and got some bang up hounds but it didn't transfer to his other dogs on crosses. If Mr Ganus' hounds don't have any holes, what are you trying to improve. The boys said maybe you want to strike out on your own and make your own name. How do you get aholt of Mr. Ganus? Id like to ask him about his hounds.Oh, and the man in Montana is Riley. They told me his post was on big game hounds site. Is he still around? We run coyote mostly. How do the other leopards hounds do aginst your Ganus dogs? Would they do good on coyote? Our buddy jason has a running dog cross leopard dog that is a good coyote dog. They have been talking about starting their own line of running hounds crossed up with them dogs and registering them as X bred. My English dogs are run on coon and my running dogs are Goodman, July Trigg cross with some calaloula in the mix. Good luck with your hounds. Maybe they will work out for you crossing them up. Keep us updtaed.
Thanks. Jim B.

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Dan McDonough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

...

Jim B.- Let's continue this on a separate thread. I'll title it, "The river of talent."

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507-261-9121 (C)
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Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
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Old Post 01-04-2015 02:49 PM
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americancooner
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I'm sorry

I don't mean no harm. If you took offence, I won't bother you anymore. Me and the boys was interested in you breeding dogs, that's all. I guess maybe I need to stick with my English dogs. The leopard hounds seem to be a bad topic. Good luck with your breeding Mr. McDonough. I'll go back to the houndsman sight.

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Old Post 01-04-2015 03:10 PM
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evercry farms
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 115

WHISKEY

quote:
Originally posted by kayapellijed390
Never once have I ever seen one single logical, scientifically, or evidence backed reason from anybody who is against this. EVER! Nothing but emotion and feelings. Voting using their feelings instead of their heads. Really though I don't care. I'm gonna do what I want to do in my own kennel and if the breed wants to use or benefit from my labor then fine. If they don't then it's their loss. But their is absolutely no denying that it does work. In my opinion there is something different about crossbreeding with leopards, they are an X factor if you will. It is almost cheating it works so well.
If your cross breeds are so good then why are they not beating all the straight breed Leopards over the head. We already brought a cross breed into the Leopard (Jug) but still no great championing. I guess Jug just was not enough.

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Old Post 01-07-2015 05:10 PM
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evercry farms
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 115

wHISKEY

If the leopards stay closed and the Walkers and English are open. Then you can still breed hounds to Leopards, and get X- breeds that way. IF THIS HAPPENS, THE UKC IS DOOMED, because all the big MONEY from the hound breeds will be GONE. HELLO AKC.

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Old Post 01-07-2015 05:27 PM
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